Commercial Matrix Quadraphonic Cassettes?

[Owen Smith]

We've been doing some quad cassettes lately. Wow & Flutter just did a nice article interview around it introducing the idea to cassette enthusiasts.

The thought that there are cassette enthusiasts today baffles me. I used cassettes back in the day because it was what we had for recording things, usually off FM stereo radio for me (I still have my Status Quo and Queen tape from Live Aid). But we can do so much better today for considerably lower cost, and don't record as much (almost never) anyway. I understand collecting vintage LPs, there are plenty of things that have never been released on any better format and you get the artwork etc. But cassette? There was never anything released only on cassette and the other formats (LP or 12" single or CD) have better audio quality. On top of that you can't even buy new chrome or metal tape as the nasty chemicals needed to make them have been banned, so you're restricted to second hand tapes or ferric tapes from niche manufacturers.

 

[jaybird100]

We've been doing some quad cassettes lately. Wow & Flutter just did a nice article interview around it introducing the idea to cassette enthusiasts.

The biggest problem there is whether the heads on both the machine that makes the cassette, and the ones that play the cassette, are properly lined up. If not, there can be some serious compromises in the decoding of the tape, in addition to audio quality. How do you plan to overcome that? You also don't mention which matrix you plan to use. SQ was terrible for cassettes. QS was better, but if head azimuth is off, between the recorder and the player, there will still be problems.

 

[kamranv]

The biggest problem there is whether the heads on both the machine that makes the cassette, and the ones that play the cassette, are properly lined up. If not, there can be some serious compromises in the decoding of the tape, in addition to audio quality. How do you plan to overcome that? You also don't mention which matrix you plan to use. SQ was terrible for cassettes. QS was better, but if head azimuth is off, between the recorder and the player, there will still be problems.

We simply do our best and it works pretty good. The machines are all serviced by the service center that was right next to where TEAC was, here in LA. They've been doing it forever. With that said, and to @Owen Smith's point, the fidelity is higher via other formats... but this isn't the point. The point is that this is fun . Tapes are such a beautiful artifacts and in this case of a of a unique performance. The tape hiss makes me feel good (shows my age) and it's surprising how well the matrix encoding works on playback. Of course, by no means perfect.

If any of you are in LA tonight, you can come to a recording of a new one tonight. Here is the RSVP. Get there early to get a seat. PS: Like most of my records, I'd be happy to send Wav files to you, if there is interest and if you like the work, I trust you'll listen to it on places that we can earn a living and/or buy a tape, if that suits you.

 

[par4ken]

The thought that there are cassette enthusiasts today baffles me. I used cassettes back in the day because it was what we had for recording things, usually off FM stereo radio for me (I still have my Status Quo and Queen tape from Live Aid). But we can do so much better today for considerably lower cost, and don't record as much (almost never) anyway. I understand collecting vintage LPs, there are plenty of things that have never been released on any better format and you get the artwork etc. But cassette? There was never anything released only on cassette and the other formats (LP or 12" single or CD) have better audio quality. On top of that you can't even buy new chrome or metal tape as the nasty chemicals needed to make them have been banned, so you're restricted to second hand tapes or ferric tapes from niche manufacturers.

I agree there is little reason to use cassettes today for any reason. While I still have several cassette decks in my collection I seldom use them anymore. I'm sure that cassettes invoke nostalgia in some people just like 8-tracks do in others, as kamranv says it's fun!

Only standard low noise tapes being available anymore, I would have thought that because of low demand for the more exotic formulations. It never crossed my mind to be because of toxic chemicals! My favourite tape was Ferri-Chrome which hasn't been available since the late seventies!

What I never understood was how the cassette (pre-recorded cassettes) ever became more popular than records. Tapes made on even mediocre equipment by individuals far exceeded the fidelity of most of those mass produced high speed dubbed pre-recorded ones! It just goes to show that the general public dosen't care about sound quality!

 

[Owen Smith]

just like 8-tracks do in others

There's a point to Q8, for some material it's the only source of the quad mix in discrete form. There's no point to cassette other than nostalgia. I still have both a cassette deck and an S-VHS deck. The cassette deck is boxed up and in the loft and probably hasn't been used for more than 20 years. The S-VHS deck is still in my rack and gets used about once or twice a year, either to record a radio broadcast on a channel with rubbish listen again quality, or to watch an old tape that I haven't deemed worthwhile enough to digitise.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

I agree there is little reason to use cassettes today for any reason. While I still have several cassette decks in my collection I seldom use them anymore. I'm sure that cassettes invoke nostalgia in some people just like 8-tracks do in others, as kamranv says it's fun!

Only standard low noise tapes being available anymore, I would have thought that because of low demand for the more exotic formulations. It never crossed my mind to be because of toxic chemicals! My favourite tape was Ferri-Chrome which hasn't been available since the late seventies!

What I never understood was how the cassette (pre-recorded cassettes) ever became more popular than records. Tapes made on even mediocre equipment by individuals far exceeded the fidelity of most of those mass produced high speed dubbed pre-recorded ones! It just goes to show that the general public dosen't care about sound quality!

Back in '72 when your choice was cassette or 8 track after market installation in a car I chose 8 track, plain 'ol stereo. Knowing full well the limitations of that format I still felt the higher tape speed gave a more extended treble than cassette. In another car I did get a cassette deck with the idea of putting my favorite LP's an tape for the car. But this dubbing is done real time which I soon grew impatient with. I probably never copied more that 30 or so albums. The pre-recorded ones just sounded so awful I really didn't spend much money on them.

I'll point out the early production run of Fosgate Tate 101A came with an SQ test & demo cassette. I know because it's mentioned in the owners manual. It was not included with my purchase, presumably discontinued because of poor performance from the cassette in SQ.

 

[par4ken]

I'll point out the early production run of Fosgate Tate 101A came with an SQ test & demo cassette. I know because it's mentioned in the owners manual. It was not included with my purchase, presumably discontinued because of poor performance from the cassette in SQ.

I really wanted the original Tetrasound car decoder but Fosgate Electronics went bankrupt before getting those units out. My point is that the main audio source for those would have most certainly been the cassette, unless perhaps you lived in a city with decent FM music stations. The cassette might have been a holdover from those earlier days.

The Tate units work great with whatever you throw at them. Matrix encoded cassettes work fine if you record and play your own tapes. Ideally the home deck and the car deck should be aligned the same using the same test tape. Still I usually got decent results playing tapes made by others, even if phase errors reduced separation a bit. Trading tapes especially of hard to find titles used to be the thing to do!

Budget cassette decks usually had only one head adjustment screw. I would put on a tape and adjust the screw for maximum treble output, that (simple) adjustment affected both height and azimuth. I remember having to tweak the screw to get the best sound from a particular tape. So you adjust the height for best sound but now the azimuth (and phase) is off. It is rather cool to check the adjustment using a test tape and a dual trace scope. Correct azimuth will show the channels in phase, as you adjust further the channels start to deviate.

As I recall the Nakamichi Dragon solved the head alignment problem and I remember drooling over those but they were away out of my budget range at the time! Checking eBay they still are!

 

[Mackspower]

I agree there is little reason to use cassettes today for any reason. While I still have several cassette decks in my collection I seldom use them anymore. I'm sure that cassettes invoke nostalgia in some people just like 8-tracks do in others, as kamranv says it's fun!

Only standard low noise tapes being available anymore, I would have thought that because of low demand for the more exotic formulations. It never crossed my mind to be because of toxic chemicals! My favourite tape was Ferri-Chrome which hasn't been available since the late seventies!

What I never understood was how the cassette (pre-recorded cassettes) ever became more popular than records. Tapes made on even mediocre equipment by individuals far exceeded the fidelity of most of those mass produced high speed dubbed pre-recorded ones! It just goes to show that the general public dosen't care about sound quality!

U2 disagrees with you Pre-order now before they're all gone

 

[chucky3042]

The thought that there are cassette enthusiasts today baffles me. I used cassettes back in the day because it was what we had for recording things, usually off FM stereo radio for me (I still have my Status Quo and Queen tape from Live Aid). But we can do so much better today for considerably lower cost, and don't record as much (almost never) anyway. I understand collecting vintage LPs, there are plenty of things that have never been released on any better format and you get the artwork etc. But cassette? There was never anything released only on cassette and the other formats (LP or 12" single or CD) have better audio quality. On top of that you can't even buy new chrome or metal tape as the nasty chemicals needed to make them have been banned, so you're restricted to second hand tapes or ferric tapes from niche manufacturers.

I love cassettes, not because they are superior but because they are a challenge. With a good machine like my Naka ZX7 with HighCom, the end result is indistinguishable from CD. I really have done lots of instant A/B comparisons.

Vinyl is also inferior and a lot of what people like about the "vinyl sound" is due to internal acoustic feedback from the stylus within the record and the fact that the record is in fact a big microphone!.

Everyone of my cassette recordings were done on TDK SAX tape, speakers off, electrical silence in the house, record clamp on, lid down. Not to say I am a fanatic! It's the Japanese tea ceremony of audio.......the process, the unattainable goal.

 

[Owen Smith]

I love cassettes, not because they are superior but because they are a challenge. With a good machine like my Naka ZX7 with HighCom, the end result is indistinguishable from CD. I really have done lots of instant A/B comparisons.

Back in the day I couldn't afford Nakamichis, and while I could now if I really wanted to I have better things to spend the money on. Plus there would probably be issues to get fixed and I'm only an amateur at that sort of thing. I don't doubt that the results are excellent on such a deck.

Vinyl is also inferior and a lot of what people like about the "vinyl sound" is due to internal acoustic feedback from the stylus within the record and the fact that the record is in fact a big microphone!.

Among the many problems with vinyl. I just have more time for vinyl in that for many legacy recordings it's the highest quality commercial release they will ever get.

Everyone of my cassette recordings were done on TDK SAX tape, speakers off, electrical silence in the house, record clamp on, lid down. Not to say I am a fanatic! It's the Japanese tea ceremony of audio.......the process, the unattainable goal.

I used to turn the central heating off at my parents house if I was taping stuff off the radio, because the room thermostat cutting in put a big splat on the FM reception. In winter I got complaints the house was getting cold, but my parents left the heating off until I was done recording.

 

[chucky3042]

I would always turn the refrigerator off during recording. And the truth is all my vinyl records have only been played once...... perfectly and with minimal clicks and crackle as I became obsessed with every one of those nasty bastards.

I suppose it's is what is pushing my mind on our new declick/ pop preamp, it's my obsessive nature and I like torturing Dave the Bitch. Hey, at least the hiss removal is working perfectly, the click bit is way harder but we are getting there!!

I see you are as obsessive as I am

 

[kfbkfb]

Of course, I have to ask (providing you have an operating High-Com NR decoder), have you listened to any of your cassettes with an SM (in QS decode mode) to see how well it derives surround sound from your home recorded cassettes?


Kirk Bayne

 

[chucky3042]

Of course, I have to ask (providing you have an operating High-Com NR decoder), have you listened to any of your cassettes with an SM (in QS decode mode) to see how well it derives surround sound from your home recorded cassettes?


Kirk Bayne

Yes I have and their was no issues

 

[MidiMagic]

Back in the day I couldn't afford Nakamichis, and while I could now if I really wanted to I have better things to spend the money on. Plus there would probably be issues to get fixed and I'm only an amateur at that sort of thing. I don't doubt that the results are excellent on such a deck.

Among the many problems with vinyl. I just have more time for vinyl in that for many legacy recordings it's the highest quality commercial release they will ever get.

I used to turn the central heating off at my parents house if I was taping stuff off the radio, because the room thermostat cutting in put a big splat on the FM reception. In winter I got complaints the house was getting cold, but my parents left the heating off until I was done recording.

That could have been fixed by placing a .01 uF capacitor across the contacts.

 

[Owen Smith]

That could have been fixed by placing a .01 uF capacitor across the contacts.

Except I didn't know that and neither did my dad. This was around 1980 when regulations about emissions from products were a lot more lax or non existant.

 

[furui_suterioo]

We simply do our best and it works pretty good. The machines are all serviced by the service center that was right next to where TEAC was, here in LA. They've been doing it forever. With that said, and to @Owen Smith's point, the fidelity is higher via other formats... but this isn't the point. The point is that this is fun . Tapes are such a beautiful artifacts and in this case of a of a unique performance. The tape hiss makes me feel good (shows my age) and it's surprising how well the matrix encoding works on playback. Of course, by no means perfect.

If any of you are in LA tonight, you can come to a recording of a new one tonight. Here is the RSVP. Get there early to get a seat. PS: Like most of my records, I'd be happy to send Wav files to you, if there is interest and if you like the work, I trust you'll listen to it on places that we can earn a living and/or buy a tape, if that suits you.

Missed it. Will there be another?

 

[jaybird100]

S?Of course, I have to ask (providing you have an operating High-Com NR decoder), have you listened to any of your cassettes with an SM (in QS decode mode) to see how well it derives surround sound from your home recorded cassettes?


Kirk Bayne

I still haven't seen anything saying how these tapes are encoded. Involve? Quark? QS?

 

[chucky3042]

I still haven't seen anything saying how these tapes are encoded. Involve? Quark? QS?

I have only listened to cassettes straight from stereo LPs and listened to the resultant "decode"

 

[jaybird100]

U2 disagrees with you Pre-order now before they're all gone

Are these tapes encoded in QS, Quark? Involve? SQ?

 

[kfbkfb]

Are these tapes encoded in QS, Quark? Involve? SQ?

(see post #195)


Kirk Bayne