Does a "goldilocks" player exist?

[Sal1950]

I like the Sony UBP-x800M2 so much (I need a SACD player) that I bought a back-up for when my current Sony gives up the ghost. It will be hard to find economical SACD players in the future.

Good thinking, I might just do the same.
Not only will any other good SACD players be hard to find, but the Sony 800M2's will probably triple in price on the used market like the Oppo's, for no other reason than their newly acquired rarity.

 

[par4ken]

With a DVD-Audio , isn't it required to rip with one program, then author with another, then burn? It's been a couple years since I've done that but IIRC a direct image copy didn't work for DVD-A.

The copy protection prevents a direct copy from playing. I tried that years ago and just the VIDEO_TS folder files would play. Playing the disc produced Dolby Digital or DTS audio only. The AUDIO_TS folder was populated with the same files as the original but would not play the hi-rez audio.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

He said he copied a DVD-A/V to DVD-R and the DVD-V part played but not DVD-A. That sounds like DVD-A watermarking to me, it would be particularly stupid to refuse to play DVD-A just because it's on recordable media.

Uh...unfortunately for the x800 that's exactly what it is. I found that out the hard way.
I do prefer DVD-A so I'm not using any DVD-Rs for any future releases because of that.
However, a recent release that's on pressed media, Departure Tapes by Giancarlo Erra, doesn't play. Can anyone tell me if this release has CPPM copy protection? If not, the requirement could be pressed media + copy protection for the x800 to play DVD-A.

 

[Rango]

Owner of Sony UBP-X800M2 here. I play DVD-Rs on it all the time. Mostly my own burns but sometimes those of others - including those burnt by film distributors. Naturally, I burn on another machine in my set up, but always playback on the X800 because its upscaling is far superior.

Also, initially I was annoyed by the lack of facia display, but within 6 months I was completely habituated to its absence.

Rango - I'm North London based if you need someone to test / finalise etc.

Thanks that's very generous of you but I've got it covered. :0)

I was hoping that you wouldn't ask that. The search function for this site leaves a lot to be desired. I found one thread but it was ripped out of another thread. It only talks about one player.

I hate it when the moderators remove post or create new threads because they feel that we are drifting off topic!!! I'll keep looking though.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/denon-dbp-2012-blu-ray-player.33384/#post-606770

Lol sorry...but yeah; enquiring minds want to know. ;0)

hi there! I have an X800M2, I ran 2 tests:
- I copied The Beatles "Love" DVD, the copied version only plays the DVD Video part. The original works with DVD-Audio, as expected. So, copied DVD-Vs work but DVD-As do not.
- I copied a blu ray into a DVD. That did not work. It was read as a data DVD. I do not own a Blu Ray writer.

Thanks :0) It seems that people are reporting mixed results?

@Rango, I recall reading about how much a little improvement can be worth a lot of money. The example was a race horse, that earned something like two or three times as much as the next winningest horse. That horse wasn’t two or three times as fast as the next winningest horse, not even 1% faster, but just enough to beat them consistently.

To be sure, diminishing returns is something we’re all aware of. The Trinnon receiver isn’t twice as good to anyone’s ears as a Marantz, but it does command a premium because it probably is just enough better.

I would say, in the above statement, "can be" is the "operative term"?

It can be, but in this instance it isn't?

If the context was: the person with the highest fidelity sound reproduction wins a large financial return*, then yes, an incremental upgrade could be of subjective value, but in this context you're not getting a financial return for your outlay: thousands are being spent for the result, rather than being won by the result.

*and it seems George Lucas (THX?) is probably the clear winner.

To be sure, diminishing returns is something we’re all aware of. The Trinnon receiver isn’t twice as good to anyone’s ears as a Marantz, but it does command a premium because it probably is just enough better.

Okay, so...here's the thing:

What I'm very tactfully and (hopefully) diplomatically, partly trying to say is, that (relitivistically speaking (and this is an extreme example for sake of argument)) if a person has so much money stacked up that they can afford to throw it into a fireplace to keep warm at night, then money is like water to that person, and yes, I personally would exchange a gallon of water for an Oppo player, that's a no-brainer; but money isn't water; it has an objective value: What might seem like a good deal to one person won't seem like a good deal to another, based on how much disposable income they have...

...if you have a gadjillion dollars, then spending (for example) twenty to thirty thousand dollars for a sound system is (relitivistically) going seem to you like less than fractions of a penny seem to the average person, so it makes no difference how much of it you spend. If I could buy a complete home theatre for pennies I would go for it, no question...but I just don't have that kind of wealth?

Again, to bring it back to the OP's initial question, and the matter we seem to be making headway in solving...?...maybe...?...We're talking about a "Goldilocks" player: "not too expensive", "not too cheap", but "just right", as per the items in the folk tale that the term "Goldilocks" references...

...obviously I can't post the above without highlighting that, which price-point is considered "just right", is subjective...so I'd suggest we set a price-point that's affordable to the majority of enthusiasts ("enthusiasts" and not "audiophiles"...?...as audiophiles are probably not looking for anything "Goldilocks")...

...I'd like to suggest that the "just right" price point (the "Goldilocks" price point) is around the price of the Sony UBP-X800M2, an "all-round" player which Sony seems to have produced for that target market: about $300 dollars (it's about £299 in the U.K. and $270 in the U.S. so $300 seems to be about right?)...

...the Sony-X800M2 does everything but let "the unwashed masses" easily distribute pirated physical media...unfortunately, as a result, it can't play legit' DVD-R, unless "correctly finalised" or in "Mastered disc format."

I sent the following to Dietrich at Quadro-Surroundsound-Musikproduktion regarding the quad discs that my X800 doesn't recognise (I'm hoping for a response that might shed some light on matters as he seems to be very well informed and well-placed to advise on this matter, but obviously that's at Dietrich's discretion. I've no idea if I'll hear back from him.)...

Dietrich, hallo...

Einige Informationen, die Sie wahrscheinlich wichtig finden werden:

Der Sony UBP-X800M2 ist zum empfohlenen Player für Surround-Inhalte auf quadraphonicquad.com geworden...

...der Sony UBP-X800M2 ist der einzige Player, der alles kann...

...einschließlich der Wiedergabe von DVD-R-Discs.

Ich bin dankbar für die Discs, die ich bei Ihnen gekauft habe, also dachte ich, ich sollte Ihnen eine E-Mail darüber senden:

Ihre Discs funktionieren nicht mit dem UBP-X800 und wahrscheinlich nicht mit dem UBP-X800M2.

In den Handbüchern für UBP-X800 und X800M2 heißt es:

"Eine CD- oder DVD-Disc lässt sich nicht abspielen, wenn sie nicht korrekt finalisiert wurde oder nicht im Mastered Disc-Format vorliegt. Weitere Informationen entnehmen. Sie bitte der Bedienungsanleitung des Aufnahmegerätes." p.38 47408232M.pdf (sony.com)

Dies wurde durch eine Diskussion über den idealen Media-Player deutlich, hier:

Does a "goldilocks" player exist?

Es scheint, dass ältere Player DVD-R unabhängig von der Finalisierung abspielen würden.

Es scheint, dass ältere Player DVD-R unabhängig von der Finalisierung abspielen würden, aber der neue Go-to-Player, der neue „Player der Wahl“, erfordert eine bestimmte Art der Finalisierung?

Ich dachte, ich sollte Sie darüber informieren, da es ein Problem ist, von dem Sie im Laufe der Zeit wahrscheinlich mehr sehen werden.

Ich hoffe mein Deutsch macht Sinn. Ich habe Google Translate benutzt.

Grüße

Here it is translated to English:

Dietrich, hello...

Some information you're likely to find important:

The Sony UBP-X800M2 has become the recommended player for surround content on quadraphonicquad.com...

... the Sony UBP-X800M2 is the only player that can do it all...

... including DVD-R disc playback.

I'm grateful for the discs I bought from you, so I thought I should email you about this:

Your discs will not work with the UBP-X800 and probably not with the UBP-X800M2.

The manuals for UBP-X800 and X800M2 state:

"A CD or DVD disc cannot be played if it has not been finalized correctly or is not in mastered disc format. See for more information. Please refer to the instruction manual of the recording device." p.38 47408232M.pdf (sony.com)

This became clear through a discussion about the ideal media player, here:

Does a "goldilocks" player exist?

It seems that older players would play DVD-R regardless of finalization.

It seems that older players would play DVD-R regardless of finalization, but the new go-to player, the new "player of choice," requires a certain type of finalization?

I thought I should let you know about it as it's an issue you're likely to see more of over time.

I hope my German makes sense. I used Google Translate.

Greetings

 

[barfle]

@Rango I understand the desire for a good setup at an affordable price. I’m pretty sure it’s what almost all of us want. I’ve often noted that my goal is “pretty good” when it comes to most of my projects. I’ll never achieve “perfect.” I don’t even know what that means, anyway.

To be sure, I don’t care about fast horses, although I am a fan of auto racing, and I know that last MPH can cost and be worth a lot. To some, but certainly not all.

A goldilocks player seeems utopian. My Oppo 105 is as close as I’ve come, and it had a comma in the price tag. Money very well spent, IMNSHO. I’ve run across exactly one format of disc that would fit that won’t play, and that did play in my laser disc player. I believe it was some sort of analog thingy that I picked up at a trade show that was basically an advertisement for the format. That ability to play whatever was thrown at it had something to do with my confusion about the -R and +R compatibility issues. I doubt if most people considered that when buying their players. TBH, I don’t know the technical difference between the formats, but Roxio burns the .iso file to either one, so it sems the data is identical.

I recall a few settings about closing a disc back in the day when the CD was considered mass storage, but I haven’t done any of that for so long that the details have been replaced in my memory by song lyrics.

 

[par4ken]

If a disc won't play on a particular player because it wasn't finalised couldn't you simply copy the files to another disc and then finalise that one? You might even be able to insert the original disc in your computer and then complete the finalisation?

I could argue that it is unnecessary to even own a player if you have a computer with a decent sound card. Rip and go! You might still reqiure a player to rip SACD, but used players can be had for $50.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

@Rango I understand the desire for a good setup at an affordable price. I’m pretty sure it’s what almost all of us want. I’ve often noted that my goal is “pretty good” when it comes to most of my projects. I’ll never achieve “perfect.” I don’t even know what that means, anyway.

To be sure, I don’t care about fast horses, although I am a fan of auto racing, and I know that last MPH can cost and be worth a lot. To some, but certainly not all.

A goldilocks player seeems utopian. My Oppo 105 is as close as I’ve come, and it had a comma in the price tag. Money very well spent, IMNSHO. I’ve run across exactly one format of disc that would fit that won’t play, and that did play in my laser disc player. I believe it was some sort of analog thingy that I picked up at a trade show that was basically an advertisement for the format. That ability to play whatever was thrown at it had something to do with my confusion about the -R and +R compatibility issues. I doubt if most people considered that when buying their players. TBH, I don’t know the technical difference between the formats, but Roxio burns the .iso file to either one, so it sems the data is identical.

I recall a few settings about closing a disc back in the day when the CD was considered mass storage, but I haven’t done any of that for so long that the details have been replaced in my memory by song lyrics.

While the Oppo 205 earns high marks for obvious reasons, I must agree with you that my 105 is the perfect player for me. It was a bit pricey for me even at original Oppo store prices but I kept checking the website frequently & found a re-furbished model for a couple hundred bucks less. Man they coulda just resold it as new. It has worked flawlessly since day one. Used the Australian Super Disc to make all region DVD. No cable in my Bassment so an ATSC OTA tuner plugs into the back HDMI. My HDD for ripped stuff plugs into the front USB. It networked & streamed fine using the wifi dongle but a couple of years ago I redid all my network wiring with Blue Jeans Cat 6 cable & hooked up wired to the Oppo. It made... no difference. I still prefer wired to wireless when feasible.

And look, right there on the remote is a Netflix & VUDU button. The inclusion of YouTube on the menu gives me all the streaming stuff I want. For New Tricks or Murders in the Building, I watch upstairs with my wife.

Oh, and I never miss a chance to plug VUDU. It seems to be very low on most peoples radar but I think it's great. No monthly charge, rent or "buy" only what you want. 7.1 surround if it's in the original. Most all of the movies I have purchased and even tho the company has changed hands a few times they seem to be in decent shape & I have confidence my movies will be there for sometime. Now watching Season 2 Person of Interest.

ATMOS & 4K I guess you could say I approve of, great concepts. But I will never get involved with that so the 105's 1080P & I get along just fine.

 

[Owen Smith]

Good thinking, I might just do the same.
Not only will any other good SACD players be hard to find, but the Sony 800M2's will probably triple in price on the used market like the Oppo's, for no other reason than their newly acquired rarity.

Rarity? I thought they're a current product.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Rarity? I thought they're a current product.

Fortunately the Sony UDP-X800M2 is still mentioned on Sony's UK website (at £299.00). And more importantly it's still mentioned on Sony's Japan website.... But as with anything, for how long for?

 

[Owen Smith]

Fortunately the Sony UDP-X800M2 is still mentioned on Sony's UK website (at £299.00). And more importantly it's still mentioned on Sony's Japan website.... But as with anything, for how long for?

That seems remarkably cheap.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Indeed... Perhaps we should all buy one

 

[Rango]

@Rango I understand the desire for a good setup at an affordable price. I’m pretty sure it’s what almost all of us want. I’ve often noted that my goal is “pretty good” when it comes to most of my projects. I’ll never achieve “perfect.” I don’t even know what that means, anyway.

To be sure, I don’t care about fast horses, although I am a fan of auto racing, and I know that last MPH can cost and be worth a lot. To some, but certainly not all.

A goldilocks player seeems utopian. My Oppo 105 is as close as I’ve come, and it had a comma in the price tag. Money very well spent, IMNSHO. I’ve run across exactly one format of disc that would fit that won’t play, and that did play in my laser disc player. I believe it was some sort of analog thingy that I picked up at a trade show that was basically an advertisement for the format. That ability to play whatever was thrown at it had something to do with my confusion about the -R and +R compatibility issues. I doubt if most people considered that when buying their players. TBH, I don’t know the technical difference between the formats, but Roxio burns the .iso file to either one, so it sems the data is identical.

I recall a few settings about closing a disc back in the day when the CD was considered mass storage, but I haven’t done any of that for so long that the details have been replaced in my memory by song lyrics.

Yes, absolutely what I'm looking for: a good setup at an affordable price. Which is why I'm fighting so hard to keep this thread on topic? ;0)

Over the years I've spent so much money hopping from PC motherboard to PC motherboard and from graphics card to graphics card that I just don't even want to think about how much money I must have spent, but it's something I need to put behind me, so getting value for my outlay with this stuff is important to me.

Also, I agree that there's probably not any single perfect "holy grail" player currently on the market? Probably some or one of the old Oppo players might be just that...?...but it just doesn't work out cost-effective for me, and probably doesn't for the OP and I'd venture to say probably not for the majority of the people reading this thread? (which has got a lot of people looking at it).

And yes, I think perfection is a conceptual ideal that (largely?) by definition, is probably rarely achievable. I like the sayings: "Perfection can be the enemy of good."; "Perfection can be the enemy of progress" & "Progress, not perfection". Don't fall foul of the Nirvana fallacy (something that held me back for many many years.) ;0)

If a disc won't play on a particular player because it wasn't finalised couldn't you simply copy the files to another disc and then finalise that one? You might even be able to insert the original disc in your computer and then complete the finalisation?

I was thinking the same thing? Presumably that would work...?...I would have thought so...?...but who knows.

I could argue that it is unnecessary to even own a player if you have a computer with a decent sound card. Rip and go! You might still reqiure a player to rip SACD, but used players can be had for $50.

I know, and that's what I want to work towards, if not to just to be able to put the limited edition discs I have into storage and not worry about scratching them etc. but it's a gray area...?...and you can't really say: "Hey guys just rip the stuff" openly on the forum? X0)

Rarity? I thought they're a current product.

He's talking about their potential rarity in the future. If Sony ceased production of them tomorrow they'd probably double in price on the used market overnight...

...but they are still in production and I should think they would be for some time?

I think physical media is in a death-spiral because of the adoption of streaming by the younger generations...?...I don't think we'll ever see higher resolution discs than 4k, because of the ever diminishing market for physical media and the size of the television you'd have to buy to truly appreciate anything over 4K; which would put them out of reach of probably 90 to 95% of the market...?...whereas 4K TV's are expensive but affordable. But obviously I could be wrong; market forces can be strange.

...but I would imagine that as long as 4K and SACD discs are still in production, then Sony are probably? going to continue making a player that supports them? SACD is a Sony developed format (developed in partnership with Phillips) so as long as they're still releasing SACD's and 4K discs, they're probably going to keep making players. But again: market forces, can be strange.

But yeah, I intend to get a second X800, or probably an X800M2 at this point, so that I do have a spare and because I need a player with an "aftermarket upgrade" to be able to play the region-locked NTSC Blu-rays in my movie collection (of which I have quite a few).

That seems remarkably cheap.

It's a mass-produced "all-rounder" built to be affordable for the mainstream market while still appealing to enthusiasts. The larger the number they can produce them in, the better the price-to-quality ratio* and so the better the value. For a "boutique" brand to exceed something like the X800M2 in quality (in order to capture the small, niche, hard-core audiophile market) to cover their costs they have to charge substantially more than the price of the X800M2 but then they add a premium to make it worth their while (they're not a charity). But whether or not that cost is justifiable is subjective (as discussed above). Personally I'm happy with my X800; I just wish it were less stringent in its requirements for playing DVD-R.

* Years ago audiophiles would incorporate first generation PlayStations into their setups because it was produced in such a high number that Sony were able to include a DAC that superseded (I think more or less, if not totally) everything else on the market at that time...but technology moves on and what we have now exceeds that, probably even in budget priced hardware.

 

[kfbkfb]

https://electronics.sony.com/tv-video/blu-ray-dvd-players/blu-ray/p/bdps6700
These Sony players play multichannel SACDs, I bought 2 of them, just to have a backup.

I also bought 2 Magnavox (Funai) DVD & VideoCD(NTSC & PAL) players since I have several VideoCDs (in both NTSC and PAL recorded formats) and they play CD-R/RW & DVD-/+R/RW discs too.

Having several optical disc players (I also have LaserDisc and HD-DVD players) seems to be the only way to be able to play most optical discs.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Owen Smith]

Which is why I'm fighting so hard to keep this thread on topic?

Then I suggest you make your postings shorter, I've started skipping them as they wander on and off the point.

 

[Rango]

Then I suggest you make your postings shorter, I've started skipping them as they wander on and off the point.

Feel free to skip my posts; I don't mind.