Dolby Atmos Upmixing on the Streaming Services (Unacceptable!)

[Cheezmo]

Someone that can get a lot of views on a YouTube video needs to do an exposé on how Warner is wholesale violating Apple's policy on upmixing. Try to get Apple or mainstream media attention.

 

[LennonCobain]

Someone that can get a lot of views on a YouTube video needs to do an exposé on how Warner is wholesale violating Apple's policy on upmixing. Try to get Apple or mainstream media attention.

Unless the FBI leads the investigation or there is a whistleblower from WEA, it will be nearly impossible to prove the Atmos mixes are upmixes rather than lazy and uninspired mixes intentionally created this way by the mixing engineers.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

(please can we leave this here for now, for illustrative purposes? i know there are issues but i wouldn't ask if i didn't think it was important)

View attachment 83433

Dream Theater "Surrounded" (HAHAHA..!!)

if you look at the channels you can tell immediately this is an upmix, if you pay particular attention to Channels 5,6,7,8,9,10,11 & 12 (which correlate to Left Surround, Right Surround, Left Rear Surround, Right Rear Surround, Left Front Height, Right Front Height, Left Rear Height and Right Rear Height) they are essentially the same thing only with varying degrees of reverb, EQ and level shifting..!!

this has gone too far.
Warners are literally flooding Apple's Spatial Audio with poor quality upmixes masquerading as Dolby Atmos.

it has to stop. now.

i may be cutting my nose off
to spite my face but i feel so strongly over this, i am so disappointed, no i am incensed, i will cancel my subscription if this isn't nipped in the bud now.

I sampled some of those Dream Theater songs last night, and felt they were just like your pic, all up front!

Maybe let’s drop some emails here, just to see if he ever addresses it?

https://www.soundbard.com/soundbard/author/MikeMettler/

 

[popshop]

Folks, agreed but it is definitely not all of the Warners stuff. I think it's best to identify a few mixes that we know don't have multis, thus we would know they aren't real. Also I think having images of the channel's waveforms is helpful because most of the people who will field our complaints have no idea what atmos is. The songs from the band Love are some that certainly don't have multis. What are others?
I also think it is a great idea to try to contact any bands affected as their management can help.
I spent yesterday on the phone with Apple and will continue. Here's the thread to add songs and contacts to:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...pmixing-unacceptable.32866/page-2#post-648156

 

[fredblue]

Folks, agreed but it is definitely not all of the Warners stuff. I think it's best to identify a few mixes that we know don't have multis, thus they have to be upmixed. Also I think having images of the channel's waveforms is helpful because most of the people who will field our complaints have no idea what atmos is. The songs from the band Love are some that certainly don't have multis. What are others?
I also think it is a great idea to try to contact any bands affected as their management can help.
I spent yesterday on the phone with Apple and will continue. Here's the thread to add songs and contacts to:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...pmixing-unacceptable.32866/page-2#post-648156

hmm..
i get that they probably have to upmix material by The Drifters & Booker T & The MG's.. but it feels unlikely Warner don't have multi's for Alice Cooper, Dream Theater, Al Jarreau, Carly Simon, etc, etc..

 

[harync]

Unless the FBI leads the investigation or there is a whistleblower from WEA, it will be nearly impossible to prove the Atmos mixes are upmixes rather than lazy and uninspired mixes intentionally created this way by the mixing engineers.

The latter part scares me. The possibility that there is an Atmos engineer at WEA with access to the multitracks turning out this dreck shows how the current bonanza of surround releases could go down the tubes in a heartbeat.

 

[Ick]

It seems to me that they care more about what the music sounds like in headphones rather than people like us who listen on high end home theatre systems. Makes sense in a way because anyone with headphones can listen to Atmos, and having a discreet mix doesn’t translate as well in headphones as it would in a room.

The music industry is grabbing onto Atmos because they really don’t have anything new to offer.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

hmm..
i get that they probably have to upmix material by The Drifters & Booker T & The MG's.. but it feels unlikely Warner don't have multi's for Alice Cooper, Dream Theater, Al Jarreau, Carly Simon, etc, etc..

All I know is, this is affecting my health, I’m losing sleep thinking about this crap. Thinking about all the great music under Warner that they can be mucking up going forward, parading out as “Atmos.”

P.S.- thanks for moving posts, “got it!”

Signed
Sleep Deprived

 

[humprof]

That's what I'm doing. Note that it's a Warner's and steer clear.

Only other thing I can think of is as many members as possible barrage them with complaints or write to podcast producers asking them to publicize it (AVexcel for instance {www.AVexcel.com}- I note that they were asking a few episodes back for examples of good spatial audio, we can give them the insight on what is actually going on).

I too am majorly pissed off.

Anybody here know Mike Mettler? I wonder how beholden he is to Apple Music. If he's truly independent, he could take this up in his (formerly weekly, now semi-regular) column at Sound & Vision.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/spatial-audio-never-seemed-so-good

 

[popshop]

ok, I found something. On instagram there is a mixer named Alan J Han (alanjhan) and he's mixed a lot of what is on @MrSmithers list. Carly Simon, George Benson, Drifters, Starship, Coltrane, and lots and lots of the stuff on the hiphop page. Tons. Gucci Mane, Ty Dolla, BIG, Wiz, etc. - I haven't found a real mix yet. All have quiet ambience in the center channel and lead vocals everywhere.
Looks like he started last fall and has been releasing stuff every couple of days.
I got curious because he mixed the new Goo Goo Dolls album (2022 - would certainly have access to tracks) but it is also an upmix. It's also Warner. He must have some contact at Warner who is throwing him all this crap.
What do you think is best method to get this guy to stop?
*edit - worth nothing not everything is an upmix. I found Anitta mixes that are real.

Han's list from his linkedin page:
"Mix engineer specialized in Mixing for Dolby Atmos / Apple Spatial Audio. Mixed over 700 Tracks.

Credits include: Justin Bieber, Drake, The Weeknd, Kendrick Lamar, Wiz Khalifa, Kevin Gates, Quavo, Kodak Black, Bruno Mars, Doja Cat, Future, Gucci Mane, Meek Mill, Gunna, Post Malone, Lil Baby, Cleveland Orchestra, Snoop Dogg, Alok, Nicki Minaj, Neil Young, Why Don't We, Halsey, Ty Dolla $ign, Camila Cabello, Jhené Aiko, Goo Goo Dolls, 21 Savage, Charlotte Lawrence, Fredo Santana, Roddy Ricch, J Balvin, Migos, Lil Pump, Charlotte Lawrence, Missy Elliott, The Notorious B.I.G., Blake Shelton, Rick Ross, Mustard, Travis Scott, P. Diddy, Jeremih, Kanye West, Jamie Foxx, T. Pain, Johnny Orlando, FL Dusa, Navé Monjo, Lil Uzi Vert, Young Dolph, Young Boy Never Broke Again, BirdMan, logic, Earl Sweatshirt, Macklemore, Richie Valens, Bazzi, Papa Roach, Steve Aoki, Saweetie, Marshmello, Trey Songz, Portugal The Man, Santa Fe Klan, Gera MX, CKay, Normani, Sada Baby, Bette Midler, Keith Sweat, Carly Simon, Tank, A Boogie wit da Hoodie, Aretha Franklin, Omar Apollo, Adina Howard, Junior H, Kid Rock, Marc Seguí, Plies, Micro Tdh, Ali Gatie, S1mba, Mike WiLL Made-It, Warren Zeiders, Laura Branigan, Revolver Cannabis, Justin Quiles, Mike Jones, Ben E. King, George Benson, John Coltrane, The Drifters, Los Tucanes de Tijuana, Shoreline Mafia, Sante Fe Klan, Tay Keith, Christian Nodal, Lauren Jauregui, Blue Swede, R-Chord, Sadie Jean, John Michael Montgomery, Bread, Wale, Lupe Fiasco, Sickotoy, Minelli, INNA, Sean Paul, Portugal The Man, Sam Hunt, Mario Winans, The Drifters, Machine Gun Kelly, X Ambassadors, Bebe Rexha, Otis Redding, Omah Lay, Christopher Cross, Starship, Cosculluela, Izzy La Reina, Cupid, Amenazzy, The Young Rascals, Myke Towers, Joyner Lucas, Chris Brown, The Meters, Jaheim, Piso 21, E-40, Larry Hernández, Zion & Lennox, Ovy in The Drums, Raveena, Rubi Rose, SAINt JHN, Twista, Jenna Raine, Shordie Shordie, Breland and many more."

@humprof I'll reach out to Mike on instagram right now.

 

[perzon57]

I do not agree on your statement, #The only good Atmos albums on Apple are the ones that come directly from a physical disc.# Many of the best Atmos mixes on Apple Music are only on streaming, that's why I have it. Mixes from Tom Petty, Def Leppard, Grateful Dead, Tory Amos, Ozzy, William Orbit, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Five Finger Death Punch and Keith Urban are real good Atmos mixes not from disc. There ar several more too.

I don't understand why my post was moved here, it has nothing to do with upmixing?

 

[Cheezmo]

Take to the twitter. I just tweeted this... "@tim_cook Warner is passing off poor upmixes as new Dolby Atmos mixes. This is in violation of your policy please have someone look into this."

 

[humprof]

hmm..
i get that they probably have to upmix material by The Drifters & Booker T & The MG's.. but it feels unlikely Warner don't have multi's for Alice Cooper, Dream Theater, Al Jarreau, Carly Simon, etc, etc..

Right. And we also know that, with Penteo and/or stem separation, etc., good upmixes/demixes can be done. (Universal was doing it with many of their old rock, pop, & soul hit singles two years ago already!)

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Anybody here know Mike Mettler? I wonder how beholden he is to Apple Music. If he's truly independent, he could take this up in his (formerly weekly, now semi-regular) column at Sound & Vision.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/spatial-audio-never-seemed-so-good

see post #43 above

 

[humprof]

ok, I found something. On instagram there is a mixer named Alan J Han (alanjhan) and he's mixed a lot of what is on @MrSmithers list. Carly Simon, George Benson, Drifters, Starship, Coltrane, and lots and lots of the stuff on the hiphop page. Tons. Gucci Mane, Ty Dolla, BIG, Wiz, etc. - I haven't found a real mix yet. All have quiet ambience in the center channel and lead vocals everywhere.
Looks like he started last fall and has been releasing stuff every couple of days.
I got curious because he mixed the new Goo Goo Dolls album (2022 - would certainly have access to tracks) but it is also an upmix. It's also Warner. He must have some contact at Warner who is throwing him all this crap.
What do you think is best method to get this guy to stop?
@humprof I'll reach out to Mike on instagram right now.

Whoa. Popshop, you're a regular Poirot!

Hostage negotiator tactics: be concerned, inquisitive, non-confrontational. If we get in the guy's face or hint that we're out to pillory him, he'll shut down, dig in, stonewall, or run.

 

[humprof]

see post #43 above

D'oh. Sorry, Pup! Missed that one.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

D'oh. Sorry, Pup! Missed that one.

No worries amigo, just more ways to spread the word

 

[harync]

ok, I found something. On instagram there is a mixer named Alan J Han (alanjhan) and he's mixed a lot of what is on @MrSmithers list. Carly Simon, George Benson, Drifters, Starship, Coltrane, and lots and lots of the stuff on the hiphop page. Tons. Gucci Mane, Ty Dolla, BIG, Wiz, etc. - I haven't found a real mix yet. All have quiet ambience in the center channel and lead vocals everywhere.
Looks like he started last fall and has been releasing stuff every couple of days.
I got curious because he mixed the new Goo Goo Dolls album (2022 - would certainly have access to tracks) but it is also an upmix. It's also Warner. He must have some contact at Warner who is throwing him all this crap.
What do you think is best method to get this guy to stop?

Han's list from his linkedin page:
"Mix engineer specialized in Mixing for Dolby Atmos / Apple Spatial Audio. Mixed over 700 Tracks.

Credits include: Justin Bieber, Drake, The Weeknd, Kendrick Lamar, Wiz Khalifa, Kevin Gates, Quavo, Kodak Black, Bruno Mars, Doja Cat, Future, Gucci Mane, Meek Mill, Gunna, Post Malone, Lil Baby, Cleveland Orchestra, Snoop Dogg, Alok, Nicki Minaj, Neil Young, Why Don't We, Halsey, Ty Dolla $ign, Camila Cabello, Jhené Aiko, Goo Goo Dolls, 21 Savage, Charlotte Lawrence, Fredo Santana, Roddy Ricch, J Balvin, Migos, Lil Pump, Charlotte Lawrence, Missy Elliott, The Notorious B.I.G., Blake Shelton, Rick Ross, Mustard, Travis Scott, P. Diddy, Jeremih, Kanye West, Jamie Foxx, T. Pain, Johnny Orlando, FL Dusa, Navé Monjo, Lil Uzi Vert, Young Dolph, Young Boy Never Broke Again, BirdMan, logic, Earl Sweatshirt, Macklemore, Richie Valens, Bazzi, Papa Roach, Steve Aoki, Saweetie, Marshmello, Trey Songz, Portugal The Man, Santa Fe Klan, Gera MX, CKay, Normani, Sada Baby, Bette Midler, Keith Sweat, Carly Simon, Tank, A Boogie wit da Hoodie, Aretha Franklin, Omar Apollo, Adina Howard, Junior H, Kid Rock, Marc Seguí, Plies, Micro Tdh, Ali Gatie, S1mba, Mike WiLL Made-It, Warren Zeiders, Laura Branigan, Revolver Cannabis, Justin Quiles, Mike Jones, Ben E. King, George Benson, John Coltrane, The Drifters, Los Tucanes de Tijuana, Shoreline Mafia, Sante Fe Klan, Tay Keith, Christian Nodal, Lauren Jauregui, Blue Swede, R-Chord, Sadie Jean, John Michael Montgomery, Bread, Wale, Lupe Fiasco, Sickotoy, Minelli, INNA, Sean Paul, Portugal The Man, Sam Hunt, Mario Winans, The Drifters, Machine Gun Kelly, X Ambassadors, Bebe Rexha, Otis Redding, Omah Lay, Christopher Cross, Starship, Cosculluela, Izzy La Reina, Cupid, Amenazzy, The Young Rascals, Myke Towers, Joyner Lucas, Chris Brown, The Meters, Jaheim, Piso 21, E-40, Larry Hernández, Zion & Lennox, Ovy in The Drums, Raveena, Rubi Rose, SAINt JHN, Twista, Jenna Raine, Shordie Shordie, Breland and many more."

@humprof I'll reach out to Mike on instagram right now.

This morning I postulated that such an engineer probably exisits. 90 minutes later popshop has identified him! Maybe @sjcorne could interview Alan J Han and find out his Atmos mixing philosophy and influences (has he heard a Greg Penny mix like Rocketman)?

 

[humprof]

This morning I postulated that such an engineer probably exisits. 90 minutes later popshop has identified him! Maybe @sjcorne could interview Alan J Han and find out his Atmos mixing philosophy and influences (has he heard a Greg Penny mix like Rocketman)?

Quick Google search turns up a website, a LinkedIn page, and a YouTube channel, among other things. Describes himself as an Immersive Audio Engineer who specializes in mixing for Dolby Atmos & Apple Spatial Audio. Also "Director of 3D Audio" for Audible Reality, which "develops [AI-driven] software and technology that enables the creation of 3D audio content for music, communications, and related media technologies." Hm.

It's not clear that he's responsible for all of the upmixed WEA pop singles that we're ticked about, but his list of credits includes many of those names, for sure. And yet it also includes plenty of artists for whom we've heard average to good mixes--and some with fine mixes, like Lake Street Dive and Caroline Shaw & Attaca Quartet. And his YT page includes a two-part interview with George Massenburg, who seems to have been one of his teachers at McGill University. So...who knows what's going on? Maybe @sjcorne actually should reach out for an interview? (Or, since Han is based in Toronto, maybe @steelydave could arrange a tête-à- tête!)

http://www.alanjshan.com/credits/

 

[M-K]

Upmixes should be indicated as upmixes.
Like genetically modified food should be indicated too...

Some upmixes could sound great, some never sound great. But I want to know this before buying it.
Example: Opeth - Sorceress, fake and bad Upmix DVD-V. Not worth a Penny.