dynaquad diamond

[par4ken]

One note - AFAIK, (original) Dolby Pro-Logic is no longer offered in new Audio Video receivers (since about 2014?), instead something called Dolby Surround Upmix is included which doesn't decode (original) Dolby Surround encoded content.


Kirk Bayne

IMHO original Dolby Surround is best decoded by SQ or QS!

 

[kfbkfb]

Just did a quick Google search, I haven't found the DTS Neo:6 decoding equations yet, anyone have them?


Kirk Bayne

 

[MidiMagic]

to find out how 6, 10 or 24 speakers will sound compared to 4 it will not be enough to only compare systems with 4 speaker against each other.

pro logic I is surpringly good (and i am not saying that one would need 7th order ambisonic to record pop music and place 3 guitars left and right) but if you want an exact reproduction of two-dimensional direction, you cant have enough speakers.

the only alternative is object based formats, which means having filters in the decoder, and even then 7.4.1 reproduces stuff better than 4.0 or mono.

beside the direction/number of speakers thing (which is a bit a matter of stereo matrix vs. channel based discussion after all) i can assure you that for certain applications you will also love when a system is uniform im most aspects - starting with the setup geometry - because that makes controlling and programming it a bit simpler.


regarding PL II, which repeats the wrong ideas of SQ (i am trying to avoid terms like "ripoff" or "buyout" here), we probably share the same opinion.

left/right symetry is the absolute minimum i want to see and it is debunking that no DAW supports those three different types of pan/upmix/encoder for PL II in the way they existed (in theory) for SQ, it would be asked too much from the average user to take about this stuff.

I also tried six and eight speaker configurations. I didn't list them because there is no encoding matrix to go with them.

Yes, the eight speaker setup- DOES work better. Using the QS encoding, I had 4 speakers with QS parameters and 4 with Hafler diamond parameters. It does not cog, and I actually hear the directions of the parts more clearly.

Here is a circuit that can do that:

 

[MidiMagic]

One note - AFAIK, (original) Dolby Pro-Logic is no longer offered in new Audio Video receivers (since about 2014?), instead something called Dolby Surround Upmix is included which doesn't decode (original) Dolby Surround encoded content.


Kirk Bayne

There is a very stupid reason for this.

Dolby Stereo was created in 1976 and first released in 1977.

That means the patent expires in 2010 or 2011.

Without a patent, Dolby can't charge for the use of Dolby Stereo/Dolby Surround.

Rather than keep compatibility, they created a new downmix without Dolby Surround encoding so they could receive royalties for it. Greedy greedy.

This is one reason why I hate the concept of intellectual property. It destroys compatibility. It is the reason we had so many different Quadraphonic systems and the reason there are so many dofferent ways to encode discrete now.

 

[kfbkfb]

I have a lot of DS encoded content, but it's (VHS HiFi) recorded one day and erased the next day (TV shows produced in the 1990s and shown on the digital tv reruns channels).

I think Involve Audio should specifically mention that decoding for (original) Dolby Surround is disappearing from new AV receivers and that the Surround Master (in QS mode) does a really good job of decoding Dolby Surround encoded content (TV show reruns and older movies with just an [encoded] stereo soundtrack).


Kirk Bayne

 

[Quadrobineg]

I also tried six and eight speaker configurations. I didn't list them because there is no encoding matrix to go with them.

that is what i had in mind; if you have more speakers, you can use completely different techniques (such as ambisonics, object based and/or discrete channels)

but it is interesting to hear that some people actually tried 8 speakers with a vintage stereo matrix format.
it will not solve the "no rear" or "no smooth circulation" issue, but eventually sound a bit better for fast movements and for virtual sources places "in between" the speakers of a 4 speaker setup.

possible matrix encoders could be built, and would use the same building blocks as the existing systems... interpolation, differention, phase shifts, and eventually multiband steering.

of course all of this is a bit academic since such systems limit the hotspot to the very center of the room, and most of us aren´t japanese.

 

[barfle]

I have a lot of DS encoded content, but it's (VHS HiFi) recorded one day and erased the next day (TV shows produced in the 1990s and shown on the digital tv reruns channels).

I think Involve Audio should specifically mention that decoding for (original) Dolby Surround is disappearing from new AV receivers and that the Surround Master (in QS mode) does a really good job of decoding Dolby Surround encoded content (TV show reruns and older movies with just an [encoded] stereo soundtrack).


Kirk Bayne

Speaking of Involve Audio, we haven’t heard from @chucky3042 for a while. Where y’at, buddy?

 

[par4ken]

I have a lot of DS encoded content, but it's (VHS HiFi) recorded one day and erased the next day (TV shows produced in the 1990s and shown on the digital tv reruns channels).

I think Involve Audio should specifically mention that decoding for (original) Dolby Surround is disappearing from new AV receivers and that the Surround Master (in QS mode) does a really good job of decoding Dolby Surround encoded content (TV show reruns and older movies with just an [encoded] stereo soundtrack).


Kirk Bayne

The demise of Dolby Surround is no loss. Does anyone actually use a real Dolby Surround decoder anymore? Mono surround, Dolby B and 7Khz bandwidth, yech! Dolby soundtracks decode just fine via SQ or QS, and as you say Involve!

 

[MidiMagic]

that is what i had in mind; if you have more speakers, you can use completely different techniques (such as ambisonics, object based and/or discrete channels)

but it is interesting to hear that some people actually tried 8 speakers with a vintage stereo matrix format.
it will not solve the "no rear" or "no smooth circulation" issue, but eventually sound a bit better for fast movements and for virtual sources places "in between" the speakers of a 4 speaker setup.

possible matrix encoders could be built, and would use the same building blocks as the existing systems... interpolation, differention, phase shifts, and eventually multiband steering.

of course all of this is a bit academic since such systems limit the hotspot to the very center of the room, and most of us aren´t japanese.

Actually, the 8-speaker system I diagrammed makes the best listening area larger. And it works with any of the RM systems. You don't need a matching encoder with the same number of inputs.

The number of inputs in my encoder is the number of inputs on the mixer I use. Then I can put each input wherever I want it in the mix.

 

[chucky3042]

Speaking of Involve Audio, we haven’t heard from @chucky3042 for a while. Where y’at, buddy?

Hey Barfle

Distracted by the solar industry and really bad sales in Australia due to the interest rates and the introduction of a new Australian standard AS4777.2 that makes only one inverter compatible with our batteries (the most expensive one by a factor of 3). ***** is also very distracted by shinny things, a crook tummy (too much fancy food) and working on the preamp (its really hard going). I am also about to release the desktop electrostatic speakers as I think I have got them sounding good now - just need to package it. Also I am still working on my new monster dragon slayer electrostatic speaker. Quietly we are also working on a BIG deal with a major consumer electronic brand......watch this space.

I still luvs yous guys!!!!

 

[kfbkfb]

Does anyone actually use a real Dolby Surround decoder anymore?

I used Dolby Pro-Logic 2 movie mode for over a year for decoding DS encoded rerun TV shows (the new Outer Limits etc.), but I recently went back to original Dolby Pro-Logic which seems to provide better directionality from the encoded TV show soundtracks.

My recommendation for Involve Audio is to specifically promote the idea that there are no new decoders for DS encoded (generally older - movies on VHS HiFi, LaserDisc, digital TV reruns channels etc.) content and to note that the QS matrix decoder in the SM does a very good job of decoding Dolby Surround encoded content.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Hey Barfle

Distracted by the solar industry and really bad sales in Australia due to the interest rates and the introduction of a new Australian standard AS4777.2 that makes only one inverter compatible with our batteries (the most expensive one by a factor of 3). ***** is also very distracted by shinny things, a crook tummy (too much fancy food) and working on the preamp (its really hard going). I am also about to release the desktop electrostatic speakers as I think I have got them sounding good now - just need to package it. Also I am still working on my new monster dragon slayer electrostatic speaker. Quietly we are also working on a BIG deal with a major consumer electronic brand......watch this space.

I still luvs yous guys!!!!

And here I thought you were on the Schit thanks to their new Syn! I'm stickin' with my Involve Audio Surround Master v3! HA!

 

[Quadrobineg]

oh btw.

i also have an n:2:3 plug-in, which sends the side signal to the surround with 1/√2 and offers an optional haas delay.

there has never been any industry attempt for such a LRS system, right?

 

[par4ken]

I have a Fosgate Dolby Surround Decoder that I purchased from a local audio dealers "Garage Sale". It had a blown rear channel amplifier. Although it was an easy fix (blown output transistor) I just removed the amp components from the board, as I had no intention of using the built in amplifier anyway. Like some old quad stuff it was meant as an add on to an existing stereo system. It does have front and rear channel RCA output jacks and so can be hooked up as a regular decoder to an existing quad/surround system.

I upgraded the TL084 op amps to TL074s. I even added rack mount adaptors to it so that it could be mounted in my audio rack. I never liked the sound of it (compared to my Composer) so I rarely used it and eventually removed it from my rack. It is a real Dolby decoder with Dolby B and (I think) time delay.

If anyone wants it PM me, I'll pull it out of the shed. Pay me for shipping and it's yours.

Edit: I just pulled it out it is a 360° Space Matrix. It also has several different surround modes and a center channel output.

 

[MidiMagic]

The demise of Dolby Surround is no loss. Does anyone actually use a real Dolby Surround decoder anymore? Mono surround, Dolby B and 7Khz bandwidth, yech! Dolby soundtracks decode just fine via SQ or QS, and as you say Involve!

I have a Dolby Surround decoder and a Pro Logic I decoder. The Pro Logic I is the one I use.