Atmos vs 5.1

[jimfisheye]

I decent way forward would be to formally acknowledge the deprecation of 5.1(side) by making 7.x playback default to treating both 5.1 formats as 5.1(rear). Make a preference setting or playback option to treat 5.1 as 5.1(side) for the 1 or 3 actual genuine 5.1(side) recordings out in the wild. Make the user reach for the controls for a rare 5.1(side) recording. Ditto for stand along hardware players. The industry seems to have gone with the popular option I mentioned above for now.

 

[barfle]

There's a 5.1 side???? And players prefer that????
Every time I run into something like this I want to rip my hair out.

The few Atmos mixes I've listened to on my humble 5.1 system sound sound just fine, with the rears at around 105 and the fronts at around 35. I certainly have many SACDs that have a diagram that suggest a 110-130 degree rear placement! Unfortunately I don't have the room...

Even though I don't have it set up that way, I much prefer a 5.1 setup arranged like quad, where's it's essentially a square of speakers and then the center in the front in the middle. Not the weird disproportionate sphere, IMO. I try to engineer my mixes so it doesn't sound excessively awkward on either...

Also, the Atmos height speakers being at different locations than the floor speakers hurts my brain...

Square wasn't really an option in my room (which is clear from the built thread), but it's pretty close. Doors and walls get in the way, and the door into the room can't be moved without enormous expense, it being built around "bonus room trusses."

Of course, with four seats, only one can be optimum, and even the best seat isn't really optimum. Tradeoffs everywhere, but I think it came out pretty good. I haven't tried Atmos yet, although I put the speakers as close to the Dolby suggested locations as I could, considering that there are trusses involved and the ceiling being a bit lower than the spec. I expect Atmos capability to arrive this year. I have the money, but I'm not sure about the time.

 

[Rhinojack]

My reply may not be popular but I'd like to say this, I have never heard music played through a professional Atmos set-up, especially for demo purposes. My own Atmos set-up is in an apartment with a 5.2.1 arrangement and the two overheads are mounted against the front wall and angled down. Sometimes I wonder if I am even hearing them. With that being said, I have always felt that with Atmos, one has to work to hear the spacial quality, (occupying that special place) whereas a traditional 5.1 set up sounds clearer and easily more separated. I'd love to attend a sound show to hear what Atmos can truly do as far as recorded music goes.

 

[himey]

5.2.1

5.1.2

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

5.1.2

Nah, 5.2.1! 2 subs and a VOG speaker!

 

[Owen Smith]

Next time you rip a bluray with MakeMKV, click on one of the 5.1 tracks and look at the codec and format used. What does it say? Say's "5.1(side)" doesn't it.

I never use MakeMKV. Also I would not take one piece of software's display as proof, lots of strange ideas propagate with no basis in facts.

 

[Owen Smith]

Spell check has failed to me.

Nothing to do with spell check, "depreciated" is a perfectly good word. Your car has depreciated in value, it is worth less than last year. It doesn't mean the same as when a standard is deprecated, that means you aren't meant to use it any more.

 

[Rhinojack]

Nah, 5.2.1! 2 subs and a VOG speaker!

I do have an unintentionally big sub that I ordered by mistake and decided to keep. Even dialed down it is pretty strong.

 

[barfle]

My reply may not be popular but I'd like to say this, I have never heard music played through a professional Atmos set-up, especially for demo purposes. My own Atmos set-up is in an apartment with a 5.2.1 arrangement and the two overheads are mounted against the front wall and angled down. Sometimes I wonder if I am even hearing them. With that being said, I have always felt that with Atmos, one has to work to hear the spacial quality, (occupying that special place) whereas a traditional 5.1 set up sounds clearer and easily more separated. I'd love to attend a sound show to hear what Atmos can truly do as far as recorded music goes.

Me, neither. Atmos came out a few months before I retired, and in the nearly ten years since that event, I’ve been selling a house, buying a new one, surviving COVID, moving my parents, yadda yadda yadda. I don’t know if there is somewhere nearby where I could hear a demo-quality atmos setup. But then, participants in this hobby seem to be scarce in these parts.

COVID, of course, changed a lot of habits. I remember haunting record stores, but the only time I’ve bought vinyl since I moved was a record show before COVID. I have mostly been trying to get the creature comforts together in my room and getting my collection of fifty-year-old gear functioning properly. As I’ve noted, I believe I will have Atmos working in the room by the end of the year, and I hope to have good vinyl playback as well. I don’t know if that’s too ambitious or not.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Well at least some of you older peeps (I'm 63 in November) are giving Atmos a go...

I've currently got a 7.1 channel set-up for music but I much prefer music in 5.1. When I move house next year I intend to create a dedicated media room with Atmos/DTS:X most probably a 7.1.4 set-up...

 

[H.A.L.]

I find movies greatly enhanced by Atmos. Music depends on the mix; some is blah, others stellar.
Would I go back to 7.2 ? (5.1 was good, but those extra wides, wow!) . . . I'd miss Atmos for
particular things. Glad I installed it before I fully retired (I'm not a young peep, either).

 

[inspclouseau]

I hope they fold down to 5.1, or 4.0, reasonably well.

Yeah.. we do not have a 'fold down' of atmos that sounds worth a damn...but still hoping.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Yeah.. we do not have a 'fold down' of atmos that sounds worth a damn...but still hoping.

I wonder why? Before I installed atmos capability I played many an Atmos album on 5.1 with very good results.

You are only folding down 7.1 to 5.1. What are you using to do that? Are your rear speakers to the side or behind?

 

[inspclouseau]

I wonder why? Before I installed atmos capability I played many an Atmos album on 5.1 with very good results.

You are only folding down 7.1 to 5.1. What are you using to do that? Are your rear speakers to the side or behind?

strange isn't it. AtmosT sux. There ya go

 

[inspclouseau]

strange isn't it. AtmosT sux. There ya go

Flush and 'fold'. Still sounds like shit to us. Folded DOWN to 7.1...and then 5.1. Wonderful! Half ass is great? Again.. We do NOT have an atmosT amp or receiver. Atmost is NOT designed to work properly without it and the minimal recommended speaker set up.. And it sure doesn't

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Flush and 'fold'. Still sounds like shit too us. Folded DOWN to 7.1...and then 5.1. Wonderful! Half ass is great? Again.. We do NOT have an atmosT amp or receiver. Atmost is NOT designed to work properly without it and the minimal recommended speaker set up.. And it sure doesn't

First off, there is no fold down from Atmos to 7.1. Atmos arrives as 7.1 with Metadata. Playback as 7.1 just ignores the Metadata.

The whole system is designed to be backwards compatible, be it 7.1, 5.1 or even to quad. That's why I asked how you were accomplishing the 7.1 to 5.1 fold down. I have run into a few others who feel about it the way you do. What they tend to have in common is doing the fold down with a disc player instead of an AVR and/or having the surround channels located behind them, like a 4 corner quad setup.

 

[gvl_guy]

Yeah.. we do not have a 'fold down' of atmos that sounds worth a damn...but still hoping.

I partially agree with you. I've bought some Atmos only surround mix discs. They sound better than plain old stereo for sure, but when they have a 5.1 version on them, it usually blows away the "food down" Atmos on my 5.1. sometimes, the stereo through my Surround Master or Sansui synthesizer actually sounds better. So, for example, this Elton disc is not high on my list. I have the SACDs with most of the tunes. Plus, SDE shipping is quite expensive for the US. And with no 5.1 version, it's a pass. (Although I may regret it at some point.)

 

[inspclouseau]

First off, there is no fold down from Atmos to 7.1. Atmos arrives as 7.1 with Metadata. Playback as 7.1 just ignores the Metadata.

The whole system is designed to be backwards compatible, be it 7.1, 5.1 or even to quad. That's why I asked how you were accomplishing the 7.1 to 5.1 fold down. I have run into a few others who feel about it the way you do. What they tend to have in common is doing the fold down with a disc player instead of an AVR and/or having the surround channels located behind them, like a 4 corner quad setup.

Our system is exactly like 5.1 was designed. Atmos on a 5.1 ( 5.3 here) non atmos system truly sounds like shit. I am not going to dress this up any other way.
BOTH of us obviously hear differently...most do, but we still hear the difference, and it's more than obvious to us.

 

[inspclouseau]

First off, there is no fold down from Atmos to 7.1. Atmos arrives as 7.1 with Metadata. Playback as 7.1 just ignores the Metadata.

The whole system is designed to be backwards compatible, be it 7.1, 5.1 or even to quad. That's why I asked how you were accomplishing the 7.1 to 5.1 fold down. I have run into a few others who feel about it the way you do. What they tend to have in common is doing the fold down with a disc player instead of an AVR and/or having the surround channels located behind them, like a 4 corner quad setup.

designed by who exactly? Dolby? $$ Funny. A smooth move against DTS. Nothing else but. And a way to get streaming shoved down folks throats. Watching physical media dwindle gets em' giddy. Music rentals. Fed up with the obvious BS. Who exactly is doing all of these wonderful atmos mixes via streaming.. cracks me up.
Maybe Steven Wilson types need to get busier ... (we love that dude)
I will not ignore that it sound like shit on NON atmos equip and speaker 'recommended requirements'. Folks do have ears ..right?

 

[srbjab]

I believe the situation is a bit more nuanced. Most Atmos mixes contain sounds in a 7.1 bed plus sounds that are in objects described in metadata. When you playback an Atmos track on a non-atmos capable receiver or processor (which does not process the metadata), the bed based sounds are accurately placed in their expected 7.1/5.1 locations, but the object based sounds are less precisely "folded down" to an approximate 7.1/5.1 position. The fact is, this fold down positioning of object based sounds is inherently less accurate on non-atmos capable systems than metadata processing would be and it may not yield the same result as a dedicated 5.1/7.1 mix would. Since this fold down process is automatic and probably not part of an atmos mixing engineers normal workflow, it probably is a bit hit or miss in terms of resulting accuracy. An Atmos mix that primarily used bed based sounds with little to no panning or 3-d movement and few, if any, object based sounds, should sound pretty good on a non-Atmos system.

However, if you play an Atmos mix on an Atmos capable receiver/processor that is only equipped with a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup, the situation is vastly different. In that case, the metadata is fully processed for object sounds which allows the Atmos renderer to place the sounds as accurately as possible within the available speaker setup.