I voted 10. I am not huge fan of ELP, but this release is stellar surround with radio hits which makes it a no brainer for me. My issue does have the extra Lucky Man. Plus it is DVD-A old style with pictures and lyrics, the best discs ever made.
HiRez Poll Emerson Lake & Palmer - BRAIN SALAD SURGERY [DVD-A][2000 WB]
- Thread starter JonUrban
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I’ve been playing “Still You Turn Me On” a lot lately and feel it’s one of the great rock surround mixes of all time. Pure demo quality. When it kicks in hard with the bass it sounds quite powerful and my system handles is beautifully. It has a real analog quality that is simply missing in today’s recordings.
This and “From the Beginning” are my two favorite ELP tracks - it’s nice to have both now in surround of this caliber.
Saw the band twice and I’m still not the biggest fan. But this DVD-A gets a 10 on this track alone.
This and “From the Beginning” are my two favorite ELP tracks - it’s nice to have both now in surround of this caliber.
Saw the band twice and I’m still not the biggest fan. But this DVD-A gets a 10 on this track alone.
Interestingly enough, a rip of SYTMO yields a 5.0 format. No LFE. Same with Karn Evil 9 second impression. That disk is also one of a handful of DVD-As that I have that does not include a dedicated stereo layer.
But other tracks on same disc do?
Imo SYTMO sounds so stellar it needs no LFE really.
Yes I believe so. I only know that because I recently went through my ripped library and added empty centers and LFE channels to everything that was 5.0, 4.0 or 4.1 Its a strangely formatted disc. And like I said... no stereo layer.
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I'm going through my discs in order and am now listening to DVD-a only. This release is the definition of IMMERSIVE. A performance more than an album. Hell yeah it's pretentious. And masterful and fun! Find it if you can.
Rickk
Member
Just got it last week at fair price. I love it.
NYMo
Senior Member
Just imported this from Japan.
The surround is a lot of fun and the bonus Lucky Man makes it all worthwhile.
I gave it a 9 !
The surround is a lot of fun and the bonus Lucky Man makes it all worthwhile.
I gave it a 9 !
Several weeks ago, I had the opportunity to interview John Kellogg, who created this 5.1 mix and several others (Chicago, Foreigner, Deep Purple, etc) for WMG during the early-2000s SACD/DVD-A era. I had no idea he was such a strong proponent of surround music, going all the way back to the mid-80's! He shared some interesting stories about working on the Brain Salad Surgery 5.1 remix:
https://immersiveaudioalbum.com/202...-producer-engineer-musician-and-technologist/
https://immersiveaudioalbum.com/202...-producer-engineer-musician-and-technologist/
Nice job!
A couple of interesting tidbits on the ELP front. First, he mentions having mixed a couple of tracks from the Black Moon album into 5.1. Would love to hear those some day. Second, he states "ELP used to do arena shows in the 70’s in quad. Their live front-of-house mixer used to pan stuff all over the place, so they were no strangers to surround sound. Greg gave me some tapes of the “off the board” live quad mixes to listen to." So....there are quad masters of live shows in the ELP vault???
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Wow--fascinating interview, Jonathan. He was on the ground floor of all kinds of stuff. Appreciate all the great "content" you've been adding to IAA lately.
(By the way: I like Greg Lake's attitude towards surround mixing! Also Kellogg's remarks about "lazy 5.1 mixes, where someone throws some reverb or a couple instruments back into the surrounds with essentially a stereo mix in front" being "disrespectful to the music and the art of surround." Somebody give this guy some more mainstream, major-label work--right now!)
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Thank you for the interview a great read
Bring on those live ELP tapes!
Bring on those live ELP tapes!
kap'n krunch
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Great interview and page! Thanks!
musicmemorabiliashoppellc
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
I’ve got both versions
musicmemorabiliashoppellc
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
What a great read thanks so very much Sjcorne!!!
swam36fc
Member
Yes, thanks so much -love it!
jimfisheye
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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They actually made quad soundboards?!
QUAD soundboards?
Real quad soundboards?
Damn guys, release those!!
Can anyone comment on the live quad panning vs the quad mixing on the Welcome Back release? Is the Welcome Back mix more or less an authentic representation of the live mixing?
Damn... Wish Floyd would have recorded even one quad soundboard. They only made rough fold-downs for themselves to critique their performances and apparently just didn't care. And that continues to just suck!
If there are ELP live quad board tapes, these need to come out! Polish up whatever you need to. (Please don't give it to JJ.) And I said "polish" not volume war or alter into 5.1 or whatever other stupid shit happens sometimes.
QUAD soundboards?
Real quad soundboards?
Damn guys, release those!!
Can anyone comment on the live quad panning vs the quad mixing on the Welcome Back release? Is the Welcome Back mix more or less an authentic representation of the live mixing?
Damn... Wish Floyd would have recorded even one quad soundboard. They only made rough fold-downs for themselves to critique their performances and apparently just didn't care. And that continues to just suck!
If there are ELP live quad board tapes, these need to come out! Polish up whatever you need to. (Please don't give it to JJ.) And I said "polish" not volume war or alter into 5.1 or whatever other stupid shit happens sometimes.
Thank you for this - very interesting and entertaining.
Hang on, don't get too excited yet. Let's review some details. (posted this on QQ in past years, repeating here for context).
The live shows in 1973-1974 featured a PA system with quad speaker arrays - rears placed at the back edge of the arena venue floor. It was designed by Bill Hough - the first person I ever heard use the phrase "digital delay lines". I recognized him milling about in the middle of the arena floor at the Feb 1974 show in San Diego and started a conversation. I specifically asked if the show might be recorded; he replied: "there's a Scully-Metrotec 16 track machine backstage recording the show every night." <every night?>
The quad mixing on WBMFTTSTNE: As long time Q8 sufferers like myself know, the core of the band largely up front most of the time, reverbs or silence in the rears. The first hint of quad is the Moog solo panning around the room in Hoedown. Toccata synth drums all over the place, Aquatarkus synths and guitar solo in Battlefield for sure. More for effect during specific moments and not entire songs per se. WBMFTTSTNE is essentially the same as being there in terms of panning and such.
Now think about what we've seen and heard on recordings of this magic era:
1) WBMFTTSTNE is released on Q8 tape only in 1975; JVC Cutting Center engineer Darrell Johnson personally reveals 'poorly engineered tapes; we could not cut a stable CD-4 master" so it was nixed, never to be.
2) "recording the show every night"? The QBFH show and subsequent CD release use the same Anaheim CA show. You're telling me there's no other good show recordings to pull from? Doubting they were recording the show every night
3) In the 1990's we saw the release of several volumes of 'From The Manticore Vaults' issued in a "beat the Boots" strategy. All eras of ELP in dodgy quality. Where are these great 1973-74 recordings then?
More specifically and some of this not posted before:
4) I used to do the new DVD-Audio listings on QQ; in 2003, Rhino listed WBMFTTSTNE as a forthcoming 5.1 release. Very exciting until it quietly disappeared from their listings several weeks later.
5) About 2011-12 when Razor & Tie had ELP catalog and we were testing the DVD-A discs (ELP, Tarkus, later BSS then Trilogy), it was mentioned to us that WBMFTTSTNE was on the table and maybe Cal Jam 1974 (video). Never happened and then the ELP catalog moved yet again without these plans to SONY Music.
6) In 2014, I had a FB Messenger conversation with Jakko Jacszyk regarding his BSS mix. I promised not to share that. But I will mention that during the BSS assembly (mislabeled tape boxes, etc.) that the WBMFTTSTNE tapes showed up in error.
NOTE: How Kellogg had a relatively simple bake and copy (admitted over-simplification) in 1999-2000 and yet Jakko had a nightmare of tape searches and such 10 years later is baffling. I don't think the ELP tape library got the TLC it deserved.
Are there additional multi-track recordings of these classic shows out there? Doubtful. Given multiple record labels penchant for scrapping the barrel, surely these would've been made available by now. "Quad soundboards?" - recorded on what exactly? Soundboard decks were stereo R2R or cassette. I think Greg Lake likely played him some of WBMFTTSTNE for reference.
Thank you for a wonderful interview on a great person and pro surround mixer. I'm glad that Greg Lake gave so much passion to Kellogg during the initial WEA Rhino release. It stands in stark contrast to the lack of interest the band shared with Steven Wilson when he was tasked with 5.1 mixing of the ELP catalog.
The live shows in 1973-1974 featured a PA system with quad speaker arrays - rears placed at the back edge of the arena venue floor. It was designed by Bill Hough - the first person I ever heard use the phrase "digital delay lines". I recognized him milling about in the middle of the arena floor at the Feb 1974 show in San Diego and started a conversation. I specifically asked if the show might be recorded; he replied: "there's a Scully-Metrotec 16 track machine backstage recording the show every night." <every night?>
The quad mixing on WBMFTTSTNE: As long time Q8 sufferers like myself know, the core of the band largely up front most of the time, reverbs or silence in the rears. The first hint of quad is the Moog solo panning around the room in Hoedown. Toccata synth drums all over the place, Aquatarkus synths and guitar solo in Battlefield for sure. More for effect during specific moments and not entire songs per se. WBMFTTSTNE is essentially the same as being there in terms of panning and such.
Now think about what we've seen and heard on recordings of this magic era:
1) WBMFTTSTNE is released on Q8 tape only in 1975; JVC Cutting Center engineer Darrell Johnson personally reveals 'poorly engineered tapes; we could not cut a stable CD-4 master" so it was nixed, never to be.
2) "recording the show every night"? The QBFH show and subsequent CD release use the same Anaheim CA show. You're telling me there's no other good show recordings to pull from? Doubting they were recording the show every night
3) In the 1990's we saw the release of several volumes of 'From The Manticore Vaults' issued in a "beat the Boots" strategy. All eras of ELP in dodgy quality. Where are these great 1973-74 recordings then?
More specifically and some of this not posted before:
4) I used to do the new DVD-Audio listings on QQ; in 2003, Rhino listed WBMFTTSTNE as a forthcoming 5.1 release. Very exciting until it quietly disappeared from their listings several weeks later.
5) About 2011-12 when Razor & Tie had ELP catalog and we were testing the DVD-A discs (ELP, Tarkus, later BSS then Trilogy), it was mentioned to us that WBMFTTSTNE was on the table and maybe Cal Jam 1974 (video). Never happened and then the ELP catalog moved yet again without these plans to SONY Music.
6) In 2014, I had a FB Messenger conversation with Jakko Jacszyk regarding his BSS mix. I promised not to share that. But I will mention that during the BSS assembly (mislabeled tape boxes, etc.) that the WBMFTTSTNE tapes showed up in error.
NOTE: How Kellogg had a relatively simple bake and copy (admitted over-simplification) in 1999-2000 and yet Jakko had a nightmare of tape searches and such 10 years later is baffling. I don't think the ELP tape library got the TLC it deserved.
Are there additional multi-track recordings of these classic shows out there? Doubtful. Given multiple record labels penchant for scrapping the barrel, surely these would've been made available by now. "Quad soundboards?" - recorded on what exactly? Soundboard decks were stereo R2R or cassette. I think Greg Lake likely played him some of WBMFTTSTNE for reference.
Thank you for a wonderful interview on a great person and pro surround mixer. I'm glad that Greg Lake gave so much passion to Kellogg during the initial WEA Rhino release. It stands in stark contrast to the lack of interest the band shared with Steven Wilson when he was tasked with 5.1 mixing of the ELP catalog.
Could be they were chucked after WBMF was mixed?
Thanks. It sounds like after Kellogg assembled the elements and did his mix, the tape library reverted to chaos. It's amazing that JJ had to consult a fan to find out stuff like, KE9 1st Impression was recorded in two studios. That'd been known for decades (it's even in the LP liner notes, IIRC...the factoid also resurfaced when the ELP catalog was first being remastered for CD by Rhino, in the 90s)
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