Enoch Light format?

[Doug G.]

CD-4 carriers aren't really all THAT fragile. What's usually wrong is dirt has plugged them up and so the stylus can't track them. I have bought used CD-4's that were virtually unplayable. I cleaned them very well and voila!

Doug

 

[quadsearcher]

Want more confusion? On the FL channel of Marrakesh Express”, the phase looks reversed between EV-4 on the left and QS on the right.

 

[sjcorne]

Want more confusion? On the FL channel of Marrakesh Express”, the phase looks reversed between EV-4 on the left and QS on the right.

That is interesting, nice catch! All those vinyl sources were captured with the same cartridge, turntable, decoder, USB interface, etc - so I'm pretty confident the mistake isn't on my end.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I have some interesting findings on this front. I finally managed to acquire what appears to be a genuine QS pressing of Permissive Polyphonics, complete with the blue sticker (for some reason this is weirdly difficult to obtain - another bidder drove the price way higher than I wanted to go). However, after spending some time A/B’ing it with my other quad copies of this album (EV-4 LP, CD-4 LP, Quad Reel), I’m not convinced that it’s QS at all - I think it’s actually the EV-4 LP simply re-packaged as QS.

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Here’s screen-grabs of the first track, “Marrakesh Express”. EV-4 on the left, QS on the right. Both were decoded using the Surround Master’s “Involve” mode. I was originally planning to use my ElectroVoice EVX-4 to decode the EV pressing, but the SM gets much more separation out of it.

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They’re pretty much identical in terms of channel separation. The only real difference I could detect between the two is that the sound quality of the QS pressing is far superior. The EV-4 pressing appears to be missing quite a bit of top end by comparison. Samples of the first 30 seconds from each source are posted below:

EV-4 LP - First 30 Seconds
QS LP - First 30 Seconds

I also have the CD-4 LP and Quad Reel of Permissive Polyphonics, so I recorded that same track off those two sources to see how they fared. The reel is on the left, CD-4 LP on the right.

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What’s immediately evident here is that this is not the same quad mix as the EV-4/QS version. This 'alternate' mix is quite a bit more active and adventurous. On this version, the vocals suddenly jump to the left rear channel at around 2:30. This does not happen on the EV-4 and QS LPs. Another interesting difference is on the EV-4/QS mix, the synthesizer blasts at around 0:08 and 0:20 last slightly longer and pan/pulsate much faster.

To make things even more complicated, “Marrakesh Express” can also be found in quad on the Popular Science Test Record (PR401) and the 4-Channel Stereo sampler (PR-D700), both of which received multiple releases in different quad vinyl formats. In my collection, I happen to have all three versions of Popular Science (SQ, QS, CD-4) and the SQ pressing of 4-Channel Stereo. So I recorded in that same track off of all those sources into the same ProTools session, wondering whether which quad mix I’d get.

Top Left = Popular Science QS (Involve Decode)
Top Right = Popular Science CD-4
Bottom Left = Popular Science SQ (Involve SQ Decode)
Bottom Right = 4-Channel Stereo SQ (Involve SQ Decode)

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As it turns out, they all match the alternate, more adventurous mix found on the CD-4 and reel of Permissive Polyphonics. The QS decode from Popular Science is remarkably similar to the discrete reel - a testament to how good the SM's QS decoding ability is.

I guess the question going forward is: for all the Project 3 titles that were issued in EV-4 and QS, are any of them genuine QS? Or are they just re-packaged EV-4?

This is something I've suspected as well. But I've yet to conclusively prove it.

I notice that the "EV4" record doesn't specify "EV4" on the sticker. I think for a while we've been assuming generic labels mean EV4. What I really want to do is get one with a clear QS label, and one with a clear stereo-4 or EV-4 label, and see if they still match up. I'm quite tempted to grab this Stereo-4 Permissive Polyphonics, but I know the QS labeled one is the harder one to find.... ENOCH LIGHT Permissive Polyphonics LP 1970 Project 3 easy listening | eBay

 

[Circular Vibes]

CD-4 carriers aren't really all THAT fragile. What's usually wrong is dirt has plugged them up and so the stylus can't track them. I have bought used CD-4's that were virtually unplayable. I cleaned them very well and voila!

Doug

I have had similar results. I have been buying Japanese quad discs for a few years and found that they can often arrive with a strange smelling mold. They seem unplayable but a serious wet cleaning, sometimes twice really shows how tough the vinyl can really be. Some also came with heavy tobacco smells and coatings and wet scrubbing and vacuuming did the trick too. Now if I could figure out how to deal with "tea stains" on jackets and inserts.

 

[Doug G.]

I remember, back in the day, some matrix proponents and manufacturers claimed that even one playing of a CD-4 record on a turntable with a regular stereo cartridge would wipe out the carriers. Such were the competition and lies.

And that's how inferior systems get pushed to the forefront.

Doug

 

[jaybird100]

I remember, back in the day, some matrix proponents and manufacturers claimed that even one playing of a CD-4 record on a turntable with a regular stereo cartridge would wipe out the carriers. Such were the competition and lies.

And that's how inferior systems get pushed to the forefront.

Doug

One play wouldn't do it. It would take repeated plays with the wrong type of stylus, and at too heavy a tracking force, to do the damage. That said, I'd still tell people to be wary of used CD-4 records. You have no idea what they were played on by the previous owner. Even with the best CD-4 cartridge, the system is hard to get working correctly. Too many variables, and demodulators could be finicky to set up properly.

 

[Circular Vibes]

I agree with you Jaybird, unless a CD4 disc is essentially played on a heavy ceramic or crystal cartridge and a chipped stylus, you should still be able to retrieve the CD4 signal. I have some that are admittedly filler copies in ruff shape that still track well enough to not lose the carrier. I bought a Jethro Tull War Child with a wild warp and wear that I did not see at the gabage sale for $10. It shocks me that it plays in stereo let alone CD4 and stays locked on. That said, please look after all discs as if you want to hear them again. I will replace a few when they show up but until then...

 

[Doug G.]

Well yes, one must be wary of used CD-4 records and you usually just have to take a chance because you can't necessarily see the damage. Not much different from buying used regular two channel LPs, however.

My worst one is "The Best of Aretha Franklin" A vertical AND horizontal warp during the first tracks and wear. It plays in stereo but what's the point? At least it was in a group of records I bought so it didn't cost much.

I never had a big problem getting CD-4 to work correctly. I remember my first efforts resulted in kind of the "artificial" sound some complained of but that was just getting the tracking just right. It's now no different from playing regular two channel LPs.

Doug

 

[jaybird100]

The quality of the vinyl is important, too. Atlantic used less than stellar vinyl, most of which was recycled. It was pretty much the same they used for their stereo records. Arista was the worst for CD-4.

It seems that JVC had specified a particular type of vinyl for CD-4 records, but the American record companies claimed it wasn't available to them. That was one reason why MoFi did their record pressing in Japan. The Japanese-pressed CD-4 records were far more durable, and much quieter. They obviously took greater care there on all the records they sold over there. It would seem they were more concerned with quality over quantity.

 

[Circular Vibes]

The only issue with JVCs super vinyl was that by the time MOFI was using it they discovered it was more carcinogenic for the record plant employees and stopped making it. I sure hope if I have an apartment fire that it starts in the living room as the quad shelves are in the boudoir with me. Yeah, I got my priorities straight!

 

[fredblue]

The quality of the vinyl is important, too. Atlantic used less than stellar vinyl, most of which was recycled. It was pretty much the same they used for their stereo records. Arista was the worst for CD-4.

It seems that JVC had specified a particular type of vinyl for CD-4 records, but the American record companies claimed it wasn't available to them. That was one reason why MoFi did their record pressing in Japan. The Japanese-pressed CD-4 records were far more durable, and much quieter. They obviously took greater care there on all the records they sold over there. It would seem they were more concerned with quality over quantity.

its a curious thing and no small wonder the variable quality of the domestic WEA CD-4 pressings because it seems they were pressed at so many different plants.. some Atlantic CD-4's were pressed at Presswell (PR in the matrix), some Warner CD-4 stuff i've seen pressed at CBS' Terre Haute facility (TH) and at least some of the Elektra CD-4's were pressed at PRC..

 

[MidiMagic]

We have to remember that when CD-4 was first being provided in large numbers, the US was in the middle of the Arab Oil Embargo (1973-1974). Record companies were scrambling to get vinyl to make records with and they were recycling used records.

 

[Doug G.]

I hear a lot of declarations about record companies using recycled vinyl during that period but I want to hear it from a source directly involved in record production and not just suppositions from we enthusiasts.

I am not saying it didn't happen as I have some records from around 1974 that are noisy, most notably Rolling Stone records made by Atlantic records, but claiming that as proof it was caused by recycled vinyl is a bit of a stretch. There are many variables in record production.

And, I have also heard about the "bits of paper" sticking up from record surfaces many times too but I never, ever saw it myself and that period of time was probably the time I bought the most new records in my life.

Doug

 

[Circular Vibes]

The bits of paper typically weren't visible and recognisable, rather they would appear like odd shapes of bumps just under the vinyl surface. I don't object to the recycling per se, but to the labels not being extracted and the poorer additives that made some vinyl quite noisy and grainy as was common on Canadian singles in the 50s and 60s.

 

[gvl_guy]

I hear a lot of declarations about record companies using recycled vinyl during that period but I want to hear it from a source directly involved in record production and not just suppositions from we enthusiasts.

I am not saying it didn't happen as I have some records from around 1974 that are noisy, most notably Rolling Stone records made by Atlantic records, but claiming that as proof it was caused by recycled vinyl is a bit of a stretch. There are many variables in record production.

And, I have also heard about the "bits of paper" sticking up from record surfaces many times too but I never, ever saw it myself and that period of time was probably the time I bought the most new records in my life.

Doug

I actually saw an album where a full label of another artist was embedded in the vinyl of a record. I worked for the record department at Crazy Eddie's in the NY area and it was a return. I guess someone didn't exactly do their job of getting all the labels off the old albums. Lol

 

[Circular Vibes]

As a kid I remember a friends father had Bat Out Of Hell with a skewed label and he kept it as a collectible and framed it. He figgered he had a one of a kind and was gonna get rich someday.

 

[MidiMagic]

If pan-potting is used to position the sounds in the encoded mix (as opposed to making a discrete mix and then using a 4-corners encoder), then there is no way to tell any of these recordings apart by the content:

Dynaco diamond, Dynaquad, EV Stereo-4, QS, Dolby Stereo, Dolby Surround, Dolby Pro-Logic, and Dolby Pro-logic II

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Well, I did it, pulled the trigger on the permissive polyphonics LP with the STEREO-4 logo on the cover. Actually....the seller offered me a lower price for watching, and I went for it. I have 2 other QD copies of this, with no specific indication as to STEREO-4, EV-4, or QS. One with the generic NEW! 4 CHANNEL STEREO black label, one with the "this is the NEW stereo" white label. The deadwax etchings on the STEREO-4 copy match the deadwax etchings of the black label copy. The white label seems to have different etchings.

The STEREO-4 run through the surround master seems to match the files posted here earlier. So that seems to confirm it....the same encoding was marketed as STEREO-4 (which is clearly a branding of EV-4), and QS. Further evidence that there aren't specific different QS and EV-4 encodings of albums listed under a QD catalog number.

Rather unfortunate that we don't have anyone from Project 3 that could confirm or explain just what in the heck was going on in there. But it seems that there was an attitude that EV-4 and QS were "compatible", and slapping a QS sticker on EV4 encodings was acceptable.

I'll have to run the white label one through the surround master next, may as well confirm that one matches, since it seems to have come from a different stamper.

 

[jaybird100]

Well, I did it, pulled the trigger on the permissive polyphonics LP with the STEREO-4 logo on the cover. Actually....the seller offered me a lower price for watching, and I went for it. I have 2 other QD copies of this, with no specific indication as to STEREO-4, EV-4, or QS. One with the generic NEW! 4 CHANNEL STEREO black label, one with the "this is the NEW stereo" white label. The deadwax etchings on the STEREO-4 copy match the deadwax etchings of the black label copy. The white label seems to have different etchings.

The STEREO-4 run through the surround master seems to match the files posted here earlier. So that seems to confirm it....the same encoding was marketed as STEREO-4 (which is clearly a branding of EV-4), and QS. Further evidence that there aren't specific different QS and EV-4 encodings of albums listed under a QD catalog number.

Rather unfortunate that we don't have anyone from Project 3 that could confirm or explain just what in the heck was going on in there. But it seems that there was an attitude that EV-4 and QS were "compatible", and slapping a QS record on EV4 encodings was acceptable.

I'll have to run the white label one through the surround master next, may as well confirm that one matches, since it seems to have come from a different stamper.

I've played several EV-4 records through the Surround Master, and they decode quite nicely. This includes albums from Project 3, Ovation, Crewe, and Evolution. While there are some minor differences between QS and EV-4, there were enough similarities between the systems that Project 3 and Ovation made a seamless switch from EV to QS without missing a beat. My copy of "Permissive Polyphonics" was sold at Radio Shack, and was EV. It sounds great through the SM, in the Involve 4.1 mode. (I also have it in CD-4; entirely different mix.)