From Billboard: Studios Are Rushing to Record Music in Hi-Def Surround Sound

[barfle]

FYI I solved this one by using a relatively cheap service ($7/mo) that automatically backs up over the internet to a secure physical location, in the background:

https://www.backblaze.com/cloud-backup.html#af3249
It provides me with a ton of peace of mind... if I come home one day to find my house a smoldering crater in the ground, I reach out to Backblaze and they send me a hard drive (for a fee, but it's just the price of the drive and shipping) with all of our family photos and videos, documents, and downloaded/ripped music (!) on it. Hugely comforting. I feel like I could rebuild from anywhere if I had to, as long as that stuff wasn't lost.

I believe I have information about that service, and it’s certainly on my to-do list. As with most new “projects,” life keeps getting in the way of getting things done.

Like everyone else here, I understand the value of off-site backups, and I have a drive in a safe-deposit box a few miles away. But also like almost everyone else here, I haven’t updated it in over a year. Yeah, first thing next week.

 

[nikomen]

Space costs money, more bigger servers cost money.

Non-popular music to the masses, that you and a few of your friends always loved has been phased out, or not rereleased, or not remastered, nor put on newer media type, or that remaster that “you liked”has been replaced with a new, but inferior remix (never seen that happen?). Does it really matter the reason, being costs (very important) or as you said licensing, new mixes, etc., to no longer have access to what you cherish? There are no guarantees from a streaming service that what they have now they will always keep, or dump. In the 60’s computers were IBM. See any IBM laptops today? Our interests are only important to Apple or anyone else for that matter to preserve is for as long as it makes them money. The one protection that you have against the ever changing market, driven by “what’s popular” is a hard backup. Natural disasters can ruin those, but then maybe your cloud services can protect what you value. IMHO

 

[key_wiz]

I agree with owning the physical media. Have no interest in streaming services. They are a business, and when songs/albums are no longer popular, they delete them from their data bases to conserve space. If I want access forever, even with drive and database crashes, it’s mine, and like many here, am more than happy to share. 4000+ CD’s, hundreds of R2R’s, several hundred vinyl albums still, mostly those never released digitally, a couple hundred 45’s, a hundred or so cassettes, about 50+ 8 tracks, DVD-A’s, SACD’s, DTS discs, many box sets with Blu-Ray discs, etc. and all of the original hardware to play all those different types of media, and of course hi-def FLAC files on multiple drives, but always with the original “hard” backups. 63 now, collecting since 5. Back in the day, I had a few thousand Napster downloads, didn’t really play any and got rid of years ago. Never had attachment to it without the original artwork, etc. that you get to read, etc. when you bought it. Just a whole different feel/experience for me. Acknowledging another thread here on QQ, “Why do we collect?”, to me, collecting is much more than the +++ and —- of a digital download, IMHO.

I enjoy collecting music too. But when it becomes more about "collecting" then listening? Then I have to part ways.

When I started listening to music, it was on a cheap bedside clock-radio. And in the car when my parents allowed me to choose the station. My enjoyment was not at all dependent upon whether I could buy the music to own or not.

As a kid I had a cheap plastic suitcase type phonograph with a single 5" speaker. I started buying records to own and later even 'collect' and it was great to be able to listen to my favorite songs on demand. And for what I couldn't afford to buy I soon took up the practice of recording songs I could off the radio with a little portable Panasonic cassette recorder.

Then I moved on and up through a better stereo system, 8-tracks, cassettes, car systems, CDs, MP3s and, in the last 10 years or so, MC music on SACD, DVD, and BDA. I own hundreds of MC discs and downloaded many as well.

Now streaming is the thing.

In some ways, it has gone full circle to where I no longer own the music. But at least it's on demand and I'm not hoping the DJ plays it soon, or having to call in and request it, and fearing I may never hear the song again when it drops off the Top 40 charts in another 4 weeks.

But for the price of an average MC physical disc a month, I have access to all the currently available MC songs and albums and currently they are releasing several EVERY WEEK. Do I wish I could purchase some of them and keep forever? Sure. But realistically, how many times am I going to listen to most of it anyway? Honestly? The vast majority of the music in my physical collection hasn't been listened to in years. It feels nice to know it is there if I ever want it, but most of my LPs and CDs just take up space.

You may have 'no interest in streaming services', and that's fine, but in the meantime you are missing out on the joy of listening to so much music in surround sound.

If someday -- even if it's only 4 or 5 years from now -- the streaming services decide surround music is no longer a viable business model and it all goes away and so much of it is never available again? That will be quite unfortunate, but at least I will have heard so much of it in the meantime.

Would I choose to miss out on even a few years of listening to really good, enjoyable music in surround because I can't own it and listen to it forever?

That makes no more sense to me than would not listening to the radio as a kid because someone had told me I wouldn't be able to ever purchase the music and own it.

 

[ashr1565]

I can't be the only one who noticed that this article A) nimbly dodges the issue of USER ADOPTION(particularly users listening with more than two channels?) and B) that this sounds a whole lot like the hype from back when SACD, DVD-A and such were new out... which in turn, sounded a lot like the hype from when SQ, QS, CD-4, Q8 etc were new out. Feels like watching history repeat a little.

 

[MidiMagic]

Do you have any evidence for that claim? It is really hard for me to believe that Apple is running out of space and has to delete songs from their catalog to make room.

What about the length of the menu? The songs at the bottom would rarely get played.

 

[barfle]

What about the length of the menu? The songs at the bottom would rarely get played.

Indeed. Even in my own NAS collection, I have over a thousand folders (artists or classical composers). They end up being listed alphabetically, and getting to “Zombies” takes forever. Thinking about making a heirarchy of folders with just “A” etc, but that’ll take a lot of time that usually gets used for listening.

 

[Cheezmo]

What about the length of the menu? The songs at the bottom would rarely get played.

That is what "shuffle" is for.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I can't be the only one who noticed that this article A) nimbly dodges the issue of USER ADOPTION(particularly users listening with more than two channels?) and B) that this sounds a whole lot like the hype from back when SACD, DVD-A and such were new out... which in turn, sounded a lot like the hype from when SQ, QS, CD-4, Q8 etc were new out. Feels like watching history repeat a little.

its Surround Deja Vu

 

[PurpleMoustache]

Saw some people earlier here claiming Apple is removing “not liked” albums to save space. That is fundamentally not how that works…

Every album on Apple Music (and Spotify, and Tidal, and Amazon, etc etc etc) is uploaded by the artist or label themselves through a distributor like DistroKid, TuneCore, CD Baby, etc.

Those companies sign big contracts with the streaming services to get the music up on the service and there it will stay, unless the artist or label wants it to no longer be there (see: Neil Young and Spotify).

Apple themselves has no sway on whether or not music or mixes stay. There are (non Atmos/Dolby Audio) albums that I’m fairly certain I’m one if a very very small handful of people listing to it (if you’re curious; here’s a few:

https://music.apple.com/us/album/like-hearts-swelling/480270595
https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-colundi-sequence-level-17-4/1461185104
In the case of the first one, that’s distributed by Constellation, the same label that distributes the legendary post rock band Godspeed You! Black Emperor, and managed by them, and the second one is an entirely independent artist who devised his own notation scale, self published).

These aren’t going anywhere. There may be a brief period where that contract with the distro company lapses and the songs will be greyed out, but usually its renewed quickly enough that if you look for it later that day it’s fixed.

The selling point of these services is the sheer quantity of songs on them. It would not make business/financial/marketing sense to actively remove songs and albums from the service. If albums have been removed, that’s on the label, artist, or ongoing legal issues (sample clearances, plagiarism cases, etc.) Edit: wanted to pop in and highlight an album I know *will* be going away because it is constructed out of entirely uncleared samples. This artist does an album a month through a “fan club” system on bandcamp, and this was exclusive to that until it got end of year best of list buzz last year. They claim they’ll take it down when their next “big” album is out: Faith In Persona by death's dynamic shroud

(Worth noting that Apple billboard is a couple of years old)


As for the longevity of the service: do you know if your speakers will still be working just fine within 30 years time? Will the internet be the same? Will the world be the same? Nobody knows the future. Nobody knows for certain whether or not the industry really wants to kill ownerships and downloads. Did anyone guess, 5-10 years ago that we could stream Surround through Tidal and Apple Music? It wasn’t a thought in my mind, that’s for certain. So we don’t know what the future holds.

 

[nikomen]

As far as the streaming services go, I feel, for me, the bigger picture is control over the songs, (which I choose to purchase and not stream,) and will I have hard data backups and/or physical media for as long as I want, not for as long as "other people" feel is still profitable. Once I purchase it, I have the end user rights to do with as I choose, as long as you stay within the boundaries of the law.

I am less concerned that there is limited space to keep the streaming data, than I am that, as with vinyl, reel to reel, 8 tracks, cassettes, CD's, Mini-discs, DTS and SACD's, DVD-A's ad nauseam (not to mention betamax vs VCR and DVD vs. Blu-Ray) is that each and every time the "newest best way of playing music" changes, and streaming is certainly not going to be the last, best way, record companies and even artists find it is not cost effective to reproduce everything into the "new-fangled" medium du jour. That's why many people spend amazing amounts of money to find the original Q8's and Q4's, and Quad reels (thousands $ in some cases), DTS Discs, SACD's etc., is to preserve what has come before for themselves and for prosperity. There is no "for prosperity" sake for big business. It's all about how much can I make today. So even the newest streams of surround sound up to Dolby Atmos are constantly coming out, it's because they have found a new (and old-us) market that are interested in surround music that they can reap large profits from...until it is no longer the "thing" and they cut the dead weight, just like the death of quad back in the 70's, and along with it the music attached to that medium, maybe some of your favorites??? And since it is a service, it's for as long as THEY allow you access. I have a problem with others having that much control over things that I really enjoy.

Just like in your house, purchase it, because if you rent (lease/stream) you are just making them rich, and at the end of the day, you have nothing to show for it!

 

[Cheezmo]

I say do both.

To say "I won't listen to it at all out of fear that someday I won't be able to" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I have a large physical collection and will continue to collect "vintage" CD's and support companies like Dutton Vocalion and Intervention Records, perhaps buy a "super deluxe edition" now and again. But, I am also going to enjoy all the new material being made available on Apple Music and the convenience that streaming model provides. I have gone to great pains to figure out how to combine my "owned collection" with Apple Music and come up with a setup that lets me listen to either or both depending on the scenario (car, out for a walk, listening on my main Dolby Atmos capable system, etc.).

I'm enjoying the best of both worlds.

 

[key_wiz]

As far as the streaming services go, I feel, for me, the bigger picture is control over the songs, (which I choose to purchase and not stream,) and will I have hard data backups and/or physical media for as long as I want, not for as long as "other people" feel is still profitable. Once I purchase it, I have the end user rights to do with as I choose, as long as you stay within the boundaries of the law.

I am less concerned that there is limited space to keep the streaming data, than I am that, as with vinyl, reel to reel, 8 tracks, cassettes, CD's, Mini-discs, DTS and SACD's, DVD-A's ad nauseam (not to mention betamax vs VCR and DVD vs. Blu-Ray) is that each and every time the "newest best way of playing music" changes, and streaming is certainly not going to be the last, best way, record companies and even artists find it is not cost effective to reproduce everything into the "new-fangled" medium du jour. That's why many people spend amazing amounts of money to find the original Q8's and Q4's, and Quad reels (thousands $ in some cases), DTS Discs, SACD's etc., is to preserve what has come before for themselves and for prosperity. There is no "for prosperity" sake for big business. It's all about how much can I make today. So even the newest streams of surround sound up to Dolby Atmos are constantly coming out, it's because they have found a new (and old-us) market that are interested in surround music that they can reap large profits from...until it is no longer the "thing" and they cut the dead weight, just like the death of quad back in the 70's, and along with it the music attached to that medium, maybe some of your favorites??? And since it is a service, it's for as long as THEY allow you access. I have a problem with others having that much control over things that I really enjoy.

Just like in your house, purchase it, because if you rent (lease/stream) you are just making them rich, and at the end of the day, you have nothing to show for it!

Nothing to show for it except the enjoyment of listening to the music.

 

[nikomen]

True! But maybe never again? I’d like to listen to it whenever I want, not if it works for them, 5-10 years from now! I respect your view my friend!! For me I want a permanent piece that’s always mine. That’s why I have a 12 TB drive. Cheers

 

[sjcorne]

Last I checked, the topic of this thread is not music ownership...

 

[Sashaaa]

Saw some people earlier here claiming Apple is removing “not liked” albums to save space. That is fundamentally not how that works…

Every album on Apple Music (and Spotify, and Tidal, and Amazon, etc etc etc) is uploaded by the artist or label themselves through a distributor like DistroKid, TuneCore, CD Baby, etc.

Those companies sign big contracts with the streaming services to get the music up on the service and there it will stay, unless the artist or label wants it to no longer be there (see: Neil Young and Spotify).

Apple themselves has no sway on whether or not music or mixes stay. There are (non Atmos/Dolby Audio) albums that I’m fairly certain I’m one if a very very small handful of people listing to it (if you’re curious; here’s a few:

https://music.apple.com/us/album/like-hearts-swelling/480270595
https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-colundi-sequence-level-17-4/1461185104
In the case of the first one, that’s distributed by Constellation, the same label that distributes the legendary post rock band Godspeed You! Black Emperor, and managed by them, and the second one is an entirely independent artist who devised his own notation scale, self published).

These aren’t going anywhere. There may be a brief period where that contract with the distro company lapses and the songs will be greyed out, but usually its renewed quickly enough that if you look for it later that day it’s fixed.

The selling point of these services is the sheer quantity of songs on them. It would not make business/financial/marketing sense to actively remove songs and albums from the service. If albums have been removed, that’s on the label, artist, or ongoing legal issues (sample clearances, plagiarism cases, etc.) Edit: wanted to pop in and highlight an album I know *will* be going away because it is constructed out of entirely uncleared samples. This artist does an album a month through a “fan club” system on bandcamp, and this was exclusive to that until it got end of year best of list buzz last year. They claim they’ll take it down when their next “big” album is out: Faith In Persona by death's dynamic shroud

View attachment 80428
View attachment 80429
(Worth noting that Apple billboard is a couple of years old)


As for the longevity of the service: do you know if your speakers will still be working just fine within 30 years time? Will the internet be the same? Will the world be the same? Nobody knows the future. Nobody knows for certain whether or not the industry really wants to kill ownerships and downloads. Did anyone guess, 5-10 years ago that we could stream Surround through Tidal and Apple Music? It wasn’t a thought in my mind, that’s for certain. So we don’t know what the future holds.

This isn't a reply to your post in entirety, but I noticed you mentioned Faith in Persona by DDS... Holy **** I can't believe there's another DDS fan on this forum! That album is phenomenal!

 

[PaulnotstPeter]

I watched a video last night on youtube from an engineer and he said every single pro mixer he knows is spending a ton of money on a Dolby Atmos studio. Most are going 9.4.4. Interesting.

 

[DuncanS]

I watched a video last night on youtube from an engineer and he said every single pro mixer he knows is spending a ton of money on a Dolby Atmos studio. Most are going 9.4.4. Interesting.

9.4.4 , I've a 1953 Semi-detached house and have a 5.0 set-up. I reckon I can get a 5.0.4 Atmos speaker set-up into the room, beyond that it'll need to be set up in the garden!

 

[key_wiz]

True! But maybe never again? I’d like to listen to it whenever I want, not if it works for them, 5-10 years from now! I respect your view my friend!! For me I want a permanent piece that’s always mine. That’s why I have a 12 TB drive. Cheers

Better to have loved and have lost than never to have loved at all.

 

[ssully]

We want more Surround/Immersive releases of all groups/artists we love. Especially from the past. And beeing done by our most preferred Mixer style.

We want them in the Higher (Hi-Res) quality possible.

Streaming is giving us some of them, but NOT in the High Quality.

We want Streaming to move to Hi-Res Atmos.

We want 360RA to be played with all our AVRs.

"We" (I) don't care about any of that. Sound quality needs to be good enough that I don't hear lossy artifacts when I'm listening normally. Dolby and DTS codecs already achieve that.

"We" want the downmix to 5.1 to sound great. "We" would like an option to actually buy the mixes as files we can download and play, as well as stream.

That's it.

 

[nikomen]

I can offer a little insight that might be helpful in this discussion. I just created close to 600 upmixes with SpecWeb and SpecScript to 5.1 from stereo source material, very very popular classic rock from 69’s-70’s.

Even though this is music that still sells all the time for its popularity, some of these songs were on mono. Then when they became popular a 2nd or 3rd time, someone remixed it in stereo. Although these remixes occurred, the record company stopped making them, and now the only available versions of these songs were the original mono mixes. The record companies in history has chosen to delete some newer mixes, in this case stereo mixes, one has to assume these were deleted due to lack of profitability of that “version”. It certainly cost them money to recreate in stereo, yet over time it didn’t make them money, so bu-bye! The only way you can find some of these versions now is on YouTube and even then some have been deleted.

Those that think that Atmos streaming is the “end”, now and forever available, I’ll refer you back to quad, VCR, Betamax, these stereo mixes of classics for the next 50 yrs or more, minidisc, DAT, and on and on. I prefer music I can buy and keep for posterity and not under control of others. Just my 2 cents!