DIGITAL Futzing with the HARVEST DVD-Audio

[Jim the Oldbie]

[EDIT] Whoa! Please disregard this - turns out it was all just a side-effect of the channels being screwed up! Never mind...

Before I found this thread (thanks for tanking my work productivity today, everyone! ), I did discover one trick to making this weird surround mix a bit more interesting, which is to listen to it somewhere other than the sweet spot. This allows you to better hear the effect of Neil's vocals panned to the center of the room the way they are.

When you're sitting centered between the speakers, this effect aligns with the phantom center channel and you don't really "get" it; it just sounds strange. But from the side, I can hear Neil as if he's actually standing out in front of the orchestra on "A Man Needs A Maid," for one rather chilling example.

With that said:

1. I still would have greatly appreciated a more conventional (less botched?) 5.1 treatment of this dear old friend, and

2. I will definitely be firing up Cool Edit ASAP to try swapping the fronts & rears!

-- Jim

 

[JonUrban]

PS - When I get a chance I'll post a mono MP3 of the LFD track so you guys (and gals) can hear what info is really in there. Those of you without audio software on their PC.

 

[Jim the Oldbie]

w-Wow!! Just fixed the channel routing, and I'm sitting here with goosebumps...

It seems so obvious now, but it obviously wasn't obvious enough to me, heh! The orchestra tunes in particular are GORGEOUS after the fix, but the other stuff has benefited as well; for example, "Old Man" has a proper room sound again.

For anyone who has this ripped to FLAC, it's a cinch to fix in Audacity. Just load the affected track (1 thru 4, 6 and 7), select Export Audio to export it as FLAC again, then change the routing in the dialog that comes up to the following:



Thanks a million to whoever figured this out.

-- Jim

 

[skherbeck]

I used the technique described above by "Jm the oldbie" to reassign the channels on the screwed-up tracks prior to listening to this disc for the first time. All I can say is this album has never sounded better. The sound quality is pristine and the mix is discrete... A real treat. The orchestral tracks (which used to be my least favorite) benefit the most. This was always one of my favorite of Neil's albums and it was worth the reaming I got on eBay! I give it a 9. I hope we get Harvest Moon someday (and someone listens to the disc before it goes into production!)

 

[ssully]

For the first track.....on Harvest...

Here are waveforms of the original:
View attachment 9111

And with the front L&R swapped with the rears:
View attachment 9112

Looks right (to me) now....

The former FL and FR (which become the SL and SR in the swapped version) *look* quite unbalanced. Which was another mix choice, I guess....

 

[steelydave]

I think it's just due to the sparse nature of that track, what you're seeing in those 'louder' waveforms (front left and rear left) is mostly transients from the drums, especially the channel that ends up being the rear left channel which is almost exclusively drums. I think when you listen to the mix in totality the drums don't sound overly dominant, at least in my opinion.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I think it's just due to the sparse nature of that track, what you're seeing in those 'louder' waveforms (front left and rear left) is mostly transients from the drums, especially the channel that ends up being the rear left channel which is almost exclusively drums. I think when you listen to the mix in totality the drums don't sound overly dominant, at least in my opinion.

There has been SO much controversy 'surrounding' (no pun intended) this release. My Take: If one listens to the MUCH MORE NATURAL SOUNDING hi res DVD~A of Harvest in STEREO one can deduct that the 5.1 mix IS screwed up (NO matter what the naysayers say). Even if one does swap the front and rear channels on the first few tracks, the latter tracks which I assume ARE correct are screwed up, as well. Neil's voice floating between the front and rears in the middle of one's head sounds unnatural (compared to the hi res Stereo). If this was a conscious mixing choice then I'll eat my shirt.

Akin to the recently corrected AF SACD 5.1 remaster of George Benson's 'original' botched DVD~A 5.1 of Breezing, I wish AF would perform a similar correction on Harvest.

And wasn't Neil's After The Gold Rush mixed into 5.1 and slated for a DVD~A 5.1 release, as well. Would LOVE to have that one......and who wouldn't, released as an AF SACD in 5.1.

 

[ssully]

There has been SO much controversy 'surrounding' (no pun intended) this release. My Take: If one listens to the MUCH MORE NATURAL SOUNDING hi res DVD~A of Harvest in STEREO one can deduct that the 5.1 mix IS screwed up (NO matter what the naysayers say). Even if one does swap the front and rear channels on the first few tracks, the latter tracks which I assume ARE correct are screwed up, as well. Neil's voice floating between the front and rears in the middle of one's head sounds unnatural (compared to the hi res Stereo). If this was a conscious mixing choice then I'll eat my shirt.

Akin to the recently corrected AF SACD 5.1 remaster of George Benson's 'original' botched DVD~A 5.1 of Breezing, I wish AF would perform a similar correction on Harvest.

And wasn't Neil's After The Gold Rush mixed into 5.1 and slated for a DVD~A 5.1 release, as well. Would LOVE to have that one......and who wouldn't, released as an AF SACD in 5.1.

From what I've read, the 'you are in the middle and the band surrounds you in the barn' perspective was intended for the 5.1.

A 2ch mix from 1971 (or whenever), of course, could never achieve that.

 

[himey]

My first listen to this disc today. I was in a good space mentally, I just sat and listened, no computer, no nothing. I give this disc a 10. It is stunning and beautiful. I have many surround discs under my belt, I have a great machine, I have the A Space In Time disc which also has controversy. I read all 5 pages of this thread and some very smart/talented people put in there input. I watched both videos on the disc, front barn and back barn. I studied the set up of the band in the barn. I was intimidated by the others knowledge and there quick wanting to fix the disc, because it was wrong. I don't know how to fix the disc, over my head. But, I am an audiophile and I do put heart and soul into my listening experience.
The performance, that's what we called it at SACD.net is stellar, warm, soulful and thought provoking with exceptional musicians obviously coming together as one, knowing each other for just 3 days and in a barn, beautiful. The 5.1 sonics, made me feel relaxed, and loving the difference of the surround mix, not linear, like almost all surround mixes. For me a good mix is when the mixer, doesn't park vocals and instruments, here and there, because that's where people want them to be. Neil could barely participate in the interview, as he was 100 yards away from the barn and he was blown away. The other side of barn with mic's outside, a mixing truck, etc. They say it right there, WE HAVE NEVER RECORDED THIS WAY. This disc did to me all I want, and that is a feeling of calm, awe, and happiness. It sounded absolutely great. I thought about moving my chair but I just dug it so much the way it came to me. I started thinking about Southern Man and on this disc Alabama, and how Neil was of strong conviction and how Lynryd Sknyrd called him out. I never knew that Waylon Jennings song Are You Ready For The Country came from this recording. I am very happy to say I had a great listening experience and I very much appreciate others before me telling there experience as I was able to have my own. I highly recommend this recording to how ever you sit in your chair.

I couldn't disagree more. Sorry. Before I repaired the disc, I hated the mix and I hated the sound, it was just too uneven, and that is being kind. Once I readjusted the channels, it finally became great. I have recently changed my system a bit and this repaired disc sounds even better. The full range lfe channel just provides more proof they screwed this up somewhere along the line. When you say they have never recorded this way, it makes me think they put too much on their plate and in the end, something went wrong. I applaud Neil's huge vision and risk...

 

[milt]

So, you're "repairing" music played and recorded by Neil Young and Eliot Mazer.
You must be in high demand, like Steven Wilson.

 

[himey]

So, you're "repairing" music played and recorded by Neil Young and Eliot Mazer.
You must be in high demand, like Steven Wilson.

You are pretty naive if you think things don't happen during production, and things never get screwed up. If you listen to the repaired version, it is obvious some of the channels got switched around. If you look at the channels in an audio editing program, again, it is obvious the channels got switched around. Did you take the time to compare the original vs the repaired version and you felt you wasted your time, then felt the need to post that crap? Or do you think Neil is some kind of god and not human, and that he could NEVER make a mistake? https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?19693-Channel-Reassignment-Recommendations, https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?19863-GRT-swapped-channels

 

[Frogmort]

w-Wow!! Just fixed the channel routing, and I'm sitting here with goosebumps...

It seems so obvious now, but it obviously wasn't obvious enough to me, heh! The orchestra tunes in particular are GORGEOUS after the fix, but the other stuff has benefited as well; for example, "Old Man" has a proper room sound again.

For anyone who has this ripped to FLAC, it's a cinch to fix in Audacity. Just load the affected track (1 thru 4, 6 and 7), select Export Audio to export it as FLAC again, then change the routing in the dialog that comes up to the following:

View attachment 20139

Thanks a million to whoever figured this out.

-- Jim

Oh my God! Thank you so much for explaining this so simply. It would've taken me hours instead of just a few minutes to fix this. Just make it look like the Star of David in the middle! :ugham: Thanks also to the guys who figured this out to begin with.

I've had this for quite a while, but I really never listened to it because it just seemed so messed up and wonky. It makes so much more sense now with Neil's vocals coming through the center with a bit of ambiance in the front left & right instead of coming from behind me. The drums seem a lot more balanced and proper too being more in the front left instead of the rear.

I also specifically checked all of tracks 1-4 & 6-7 against tracks 5 & 8-10 after the fix, and sure enough, those 4 tracks have the same overall balance and characteristics as the fixed tracks, so that for me was the real clincher that this was a mistake. Well that, plus the fact that everything just sounds so much better now too!

Thanks again to everyone who put in the time to figure this out.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Wow. Thanks for this. I just finished fixing the channel assignments as outlined and it makes a huge difference. Love it.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Oh my God! Thank you so much for explaining this so simply. It would've taken me hours instead of just a few minutes to fix this. Just make it look like the Star of David in the middle! :ugham: Thanks also to the guys who figured this out to begin with.

I've had this for quite a while, but I really never listened to it because it just seemed so messed up and wonky. It makes so much more sense now with Neil's vocals coming through the center with a bit of ambiance in the front left & right instead of coming from behind me. The drums seem a lot more balanced and proper too being more in the front left instead of the rear.

I also specifically checked all of tracks 1-4 & 6-7 against tracks 5 & 8-10 after the fix, and sure enough, those 4 tracks have the same overall balance and characteristics as the fixed tracks, so that for me was the real clincher that this was a mistake. Well that, plus the fact that everything just sounds so much better now too!

Thanks again to everyone who put in the time to figure this out.

I guess I'm still lost. I have never used Audacity before but would like to check out the potential changes outlined above, as this recording has always sounded strange to me. I downloaded the most recent stable version of Audacity and I have gotten as far as importing the first track from Harvest. When I then try to export I do not get the dialog box pictured above. I get a message saying that the track will be exported in mono. Can someone please outline the steps in a bit more detail for those of us that are Audacity challenged?

 

[edisonbaggins]

I guess I'm still lost. I have never used Audacity before but would like to check out the potential changes outlined above, as this recording has always sounded strange to me. I downloaded the most recent stable version of Audacity and I have gotten as far as importing the first track from Harvest. When I then try to export I do not get the dialog box pictured above. I get a message saying that the track will be exported in mono. Can someone please outline the steps in a bit more detail for those of us that are Audacity challenged?

Go in to preferences and unselect always mix down to stereo or mono - the option should be called custom mix down or something like that. I think it's on the export tab under preferences.

 

[Frogmort]

I guess I'm still lost. I have never used Audacity before but would like to check out the potential changes outlined above, as this recording has always sounded strange to me. I downloaded the most recent stable version of Audacity and I have gotten as far as importing the first track from Harvest. When I then try to export I do not get the dialog box pictured above. I get a message saying that the track will be exported in mono. Can someone please outline the steps in a bit more detail for those of us that are Audacity challenged?

Open Audacity - Click on 'Edit' at the top left - At the bottom of list click on 'Preferences' - From list on left click on 'Import/Export' - Under 'When exporting tracks to an audio file' select 'Use custom mix (for example to export a 5.1 multichannel file)' - Then click 'OK' to close the dialog box.

That should have you set up correctly. Then click 'File' at the top left - Select 'Open' then find the first file to edit and select it - After it loads click on 'File" again and select 'Export audio' - I would save the new file in a different folder for simplicity - Make sure that you name it something so that you will know it is the corrected file - Make sure the 'Save as type' and 'Format options' are correctly set then click 'Save' - At the next screen keep clicking on boxes until you have the proper setup as in the picture above (Star of David in middle) then click 'OK'.

I probably over explained it, but I've struggled with unfamiliar programs before where the smallest misstep took me hours to figure out. I also realize that this is a poll thread, but considering that this disc is supposedly flawed, I thought it pertinent to include this simple explanation of the fix to help people to better judge how to vote on a supposedly properly fixed recording. I've never voted on this one and I'm going to give it a while to listen to the fixed version a bit more, but I'm sure it will be much higher than it would've been before.

Edit: 'MediaInfo' is also a great simple tool to have for quickly analyzing files, and you can set it to show file info by hovering the tool tip over files. It's a tiny little program and it's so handy I use it all the time. These particular files should be 24bit / 96kHz.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Thanks guys. Ill try it out when I get home.

 

[Spock]

Did the channel fix, (and kept it at 96k/24) thanks guys - I liked it a lot before - and now it's even better, I voted 9.

This was fun - any more discs out there with the same problem?

 

[EMB]

The Beach Boys' PET SOUNDS, which never sounded quite right (though still very fun to hear) through normal playback.

ED

 

[skherbeck]

Did the channel fix, (and kept it at 96k/24) thanks guys - I liked it a lot before - and now it's even better, I voted 9.

This was fun - any more discs out there with the same problem?

Gentle Giant - Freehand
Ten Years After - A Space in Time