Correct me if I'm wrong but it's hard to figure that the mastering is the same when it was done by different people.
HiRez Poll John, Elton - GOODBYE YELLOW BRICK ROAD [SACD/DVD-A/BDA]
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Correct me if I'm wrong but it's hard to figure that the mastering is the same when it was done by different people.
JediJoker
Audio Engineer/Enthusiast
You're making assumptions. No one can confirm that the 5.1 has multiple masterings.
I'm not making an assumption. The blu-ray disc credits state that there was a 2014 remaster.
Rickko
Active Member
The 30th Anniversary release (2004) contained a Stereo remaster by Tony Cousins with a mixed and mastered 5.1 SACD surround by Greg Penny.
The 40th Anniversary (Super) Deluxe Edition (2014) contained a Stereo remaster from Bob Ludwig but there is no 5.1 hi- rez version for this release.
The Blu-ray Pure Audio (2014) references the remaster from Bob Ludwig (Stereo). The Blu-ray likely contains the 5.1 mix from Greg Penny.
The Blu-ray Pure Audio (2014) references the remaster from Bob Ludwig(Stereo). The Blu-ray likely contains the 5.1 mix from Greg Penny.
That is not correct. It doesn't specify "Stereo" anywhere in the credits. At the top of the inside of the back page of the booklet that comes with the blu-ray it is printed "2014 Remaster & 2003 surround mix". About 3/4 of the way down the page it is printed "2014 Remaster by Bob Ludwig at Gateway Studios, Portland, Maine".
Rickko
Active Member
You seem adamant but you are actually incorrect. Blu-ray states 2003 surround mix (Greg Penny). The term "remaster" refers to a transfer from analog to digital. Penny remix already in digital format. Please explain how remaster applies to this Blu-ray for 5.1?
There is no reference on the Blu-ray to another remix. It is possible the 5.1 on Blu-ray could have been "mastered" again by another audio engineer but it does not appear to be the case for this Blu-ray with no reference in the liner notes.
As I already pointed out, there is a reference to a remaster: "2014 Remaster by Bob Ludwig at Gateway Studios, Portland, Maine".
Of course it is your right to believe what you want to.
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A 2014 Review of GBYBR from blu ray.com. Hopefully, it will clear up some of the confusion: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Elton-John-Goodbye-Yellow-Brick-Road-Blu-ray/95755/#Review
Rickko
Active Member
It is not a matter of believing. It is a matter of facts. Bod Ludwig went back to original analog master tapes and "remastered" in 2014. The Blu-ray states 2014 remaster that cannot be anything other than Stereo because, as you pointed out, the liner notes also state the Blu-ray uses the "2003 Surround sound mix by Greg Penney".
Rickko
Active Member
If your reference is to the 2014 remaster of "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road", an internet search will yield some references to Bob Ludwig utilizing original analog tapes for this remaster.
As I understand "mastering", the 2003 release was a SACD mastering of the 2003 mix whereas the 2014 release was a DTS-HD Master Audio mastering of the 2003 mix.
Aside from that, my personal concern is that the 2014 surround release sounds harsh to my ears. I have ordered the 2003 sacd and it is currently in the mail. Your interpretation of the facts dictates that they should sound identical. So for me the proof of our debate will be whether the sacd version and the blu-ray version sound, fidelity-wise, the same or different. As soon as I receive the sacd I will let you know my opinion of that.
himey
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
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Even if the authoring used the same source files they aren't going to sound identical. My guess was the original files are PCM so there is a conversion to dsd on the sacd. Also a conversion on your player if you use any type of bass management or processing of ANY kind like distance settings. I truly doubt anything was done to the Blu-ray 5.1 other than author it with the same source as the sacd because of the added expense. I prefer the Blu-ray over the sacd and I haven't listened to the dvd-audio.
JediJoker
Audio Engineer/Enthusiast
Absolutely true. It is possible that the mastering on the 5.1 differs among the SACD, DVD-A, and Blu-ray, but I rather doubt that it does. There is no definitive proof anywhere, one way or the other, at this point. The forensic evidence suggests that at least the SACD and Blu-ray are the same. As was pointed out, they aren't likely to sound exactly the same due to the difference in delivery format and therefore playback.
had a v.quick look at the 6ch waveforms of "Social Disease" earlier (chose that as the most obviously audibly changed song in Surround on the Blu-ray relative to the MCh SACD/DVD-A) and while its too early to make any kind of conclusions or proclamations, it would appear there are differences between all 3 versions, which leads me to think that for that song at least the BD-A is quite distinct mastering and in part a different mix from the earlier MCh SACD & DVD-A releases, the latter it would appear are the same mix with same fade up at intro etc.. the MCh SACD has potentially slightly better DR than the DVD-A and BD-A as the 6Ch's of the MCh SACD can take a slight increase in overall gain over the DVD-A and even more so relative to the BD-A.. as for sound quality and how they come across in room, to me they all sound different from one another, the DVD-A has what sounds like a greater accentuation on "s" sounds and a crispness to his lead vocal in the centre that is more pronounced than the SACD (which is the least bright sounding to me, at least on this track) and the BD-A has an overall midrangey kinda 'thickness' to it, with what seems like louder fronts, lower rears and less low bass relative to the MCh SACD & DVD-A. pics to follow.
Waveforms of "Social Disease" on the Surround SACD (Trk Duration = 3:42)
Top to Bottom = FL, FR, C, LFE, SL, SR;
Top to Bottom = FL, FR, C, LFE, SL, SR;
Waveforms of "Social Disease" on the DVD-Audio (Trk Duration = 3:41)
Waveforms of "Social Disease" on the BD-A (Trk Duration = 3:42)
Comparison pics showing the amount of overall gain the combined 6trx of "Social Disease" can take on each disc before clipping in Audacity;
'best' being the MCh SACD, 'worst' being the BD-A..
MCh SACD = 10.26dB gain before clipping
DVD-Audio = 9.72dB gain before clipping
Blu-ray Audio = 8.76dB gain before clipping
'best' being the MCh SACD, 'worst' being the BD-A..
MCh SACD = 10.26dB gain before clipping
DVD-Audio = 9.72dB gain before clipping
Blu-ray Audio = 8.76dB gain before clipping
so far, the following tracks seem pretty much(*) identical on the BD-A (DTS HD MA 5.1) as on the MCh SACD and do not resemble the changes noticed between Social Disease on the BD-A & the MCh SACD/DVD-A;
I've Seen That Movie Too,
All The Girls Love Alice,
Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting
(* I say pretty much because they don't cancel one another out.. but I say pretty much identical because for one thing the overall gain of the summed 6Ch's of both the BDA & the MCh SACD required to take to the point of clipping equates to less than +/- 0.5dB difference between the two formats on those 3 selections.. a detectable difference is less activity in the LFE channel on the BD-A than the MCh SACD but this may be due to something setup dependent my end as I'm doing laser drops in real time of all of these through the MultiCh Analogue Out of my disc player rather than bit for bit rips, it may be something else going on like DTS decoding versus the conversion of DSD to PCM in the player or something? I don't know but that's something different between the BD-A & MCh SACD on my BDP on those tracks anyway).
I'll check more tracks from the various versions of GYBR in 5.1 later in the week but I suspect the MCh SACD, DVD-A & BD-A are indeed the same after all, with the exception of "Social Disease", for some reason its mastered differently on the BD-A and lacks the faded in intro of the MCh SACD & DVD-A, which more closely resembled the original Stereo mix.. but will have more concrete info down the line (and pics if people require to show the same waveforms across all formats for all songs).
I've Seen That Movie Too,
All The Girls Love Alice,
Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting
(* I say pretty much because they don't cancel one another out.. but I say pretty much identical because for one thing the overall gain of the summed 6Ch's of both the BDA & the MCh SACD required to take to the point of clipping equates to less than +/- 0.5dB difference between the two formats on those 3 selections.. a detectable difference is less activity in the LFE channel on the BD-A than the MCh SACD but this may be due to something setup dependent my end as I'm doing laser drops in real time of all of these through the MultiCh Analogue Out of my disc player rather than bit for bit rips, it may be something else going on like DTS decoding versus the conversion of DSD to PCM in the player or something? I don't know but that's something different between the BD-A & MCh SACD on my BDP on those tracks anyway).
I'll check more tracks from the various versions of GYBR in 5.1 later in the week but I suspect the MCh SACD, DVD-A & BD-A are indeed the same after all, with the exception of "Social Disease", for some reason its mastered differently on the BD-A and lacks the faded in intro of the MCh SACD & DVD-A, which more closely resembled the original Stereo mix.. but will have more concrete info down the line (and pics if people require to show the same waveforms across all formats for all songs).
