King Biscuit Flower Hour

[texquad]

I have a couple of K.B.F.H. on reel and they are SQ matrix/stereo compatible They also distributed shows on vinyl and finally on CD. I've never heard any that we were more than a ambient live concert mix. I thought the BBC shows sounded slightly more discrete.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

I have a couple of K.B.F.H. on reel and they are SQ matrix/stereo compatible They also distributed shows on vinyl and finally on CD. I've never heard any that we were more than a ambient live concert mix. I thought the BBC shows sounded slightly more discrete.

I find it very cool that you have any SQ encoded material @texquad. Whether or not any SQ encoded Biscuit shows were transferred to cd remains a mystery. I have some and wonder if the SQ matrix is intact.

FWIW there are some shows that have more than just ambience in the rears----two that come to mind that I've heard, are The Stones In Brussels and ELP at Anaheim .(and there are conversions circulating on the web).

 

[fizzywiggs41]

I found in Billboard mag some quad mixing credits for KBFH .
Here's one:

Ed Barton quad mixed the show for HUMBLE PIE and SLADE .
September 15,73 page 12

 

[fizzywiggs41]

And one more.

BLACK SABBATH are mixing down their latest album for a DIR Broadcast @Wally Heiders in L.A..
The mix is by Spock Wall.
(Sept 06 ,75 page 23)

 

[bill114]

Great that this thread was resurrected. Possibles I have are Deep Purple, Fleetwood Mac, King Crimson, Robin Trower and Joe Walsh.
All were recorded on open reel off WMMS in Cleveland. I'll have to check them to see how they decode through my Lafayette SQ-W.

 

[ssully]

So...what ever happened to this? has anyone confirmed that pre FM King Biscuit reels were actually 4-track quad, not SQ matrixed 2-track? This is startling news if so, has it become accepted fact since 2015...?

Given the number of fan and bootleg releases over the years of some of these broadcasts, claimed to be sourced from preFM reels, it seems extremely odd that no one would have noticed that they were only hearing the front two channels (even if 'decoded' into 4).

Have any of these discrete (not matrixed) quad reels been verifiably transferred to digital, and are out there in the community as discrete 4 channel files/discs?

because I'm still seeing (this year) new *decodes* being created/offered for KB shows, sourced from "Pre-FM SQ encoded broadcast reel "

And again.....it was reported on this very thread a few years ago that many (all?) KBFH reels are *discrete quad*. Not matrixed . Meaning they would not need to be 'decoded', they need to be played back on proper 4-channel tape players. Also reported that this was confirmed by 'one of the founders of this forum'.

HAS ANYONE GOT MORE INFO ON THIS???

 

[Mark Anderson]

I find it very cool that you have any SQ encoded material @texquad. Whether or not any SQ encoded Biscuit shows were transferred to cd remains a mystery. I have some and wonder if the SQ matrix is intact.

Only the reel tapes sent to radio stations during the quad era are SQ encoded. Below is what I have listed on the radio discography from my actual conversations with Barry Ehrnmann in 1994

Barry Ehrnmann, President of Phoenix Media Group helped with the purchase
of the King Biscuit archives in the mid-nineties to negotiate with the bands
and labels for release of the performances on CD's, Barry reported that the
warehouse were the 2 channel quadraphonic matrixed encoded master tapes were
stored burned down and all were lost. Fortunately the 16 & 24 track reels
that were used to mix the quad encoded tapes were stored in a different
facility and he was able to use those and remix them for the CD's. Therefore
only the original 1/2 track 2 channel SQ reels sent to the radio stations
and copies made by folks on their home recorders contain the quad mix. CD's
issued later are not SQ encoded.

 

[Mark Anderson]

And again.....it was reported on this very thread a few years ago that many (all?) KBFH reels are *discrete quad*. Not matrixed . Meaning they would not need to be 'decoded', they need to be played back on proper 4-channel tape players. Also reported that this was confirmed by 'one of the founders of this forum'.
HAS ANYONE GOT MORE INFO ON THIS???

None of the quad shows were released in discrete 4-track. Only 1/2 track 2 channel SQ encoded. There have been some really confused folks who played these tapes on a 4-track deck and thought they were hearing discreet quad but that was not the case

 

[ssully]

Only the reel tapes sent to radio stations during the quad era are SQ encoded. Below is what I have listed on the radio discography from my actual conversations with Barry Ehrnmann in 1994

Barry Ehrnmann, President of Phoenix Media Group helped with the purchase
of the King Biscuit archives in the mid-nineties to negotiate with the bands
and labels for release of the performances on CD's, Barry reported that the
warehouse were the 2 channel quadraphonic matrixed encoded master tapes were
stored burned down and all were lost. Fortunately the 16 & 24 track reels
that were used to mix the quad encoded tapes were stored in a different
facility and he was able to use those and remix them for the CD's. Therefore
only the original 1/2 track 2 channel SQ reels sent to the radio stations
and copies made by folks on their home recorders contain the quad mix. CD's
issued later are not SQ encoded.

So if I understand this, what exists today are

1) copies of the '2 channel quad matrixed encoded master tapes' -- i.e. the copies that were sent to radio stations and so avoided the infernal fate of the original masters

2) the 16 & 24 track multitrack masters from which the quad encoded tapes were made.


#2 is great news, too bad they've only been used for so-so CD remixes ....


I am not clear on how the 'quad encoded ' tapes are made. Is there no discrete 4-channel master tape as an intermediate ? i.e

16/24 channel multitrack recording --> 4 channel mixdown master --> matrix encoding to 2 channel

 

[ssully]

None of the quad shows were released in discrete 4-track. Only 1/2 track 2 channel SQ encoded. There have been some really confused folks who played these tapes on a 4-track deck and thought they were hearing discreet quad but that was not the case

mrfloydin...who was 'last seen ' on QQ as recently as last month .... but hasn't posted here since 2015... wrote on this thread back then:

My general wrap up here is that as I approached the point of posting my site with my major format claim, I had some final communications with my expert friend. In his replies he made the following succinct, confirmational statement and I quote, "These were the tapes used to produce the SQ encoded shows. LF RF LR RR on these tapes were encoded by the radio station as they did the broadcast. Reel, to encoder, to broadcast equipment."

So, this is point blank wrong?

I would think it would be fairly easy to verify this claim one way or the other, and present the objective data (e.g. waveforms, audio snippets), if one is in possession of a bona fide KBFH reel (a reel that was sent to a radio station for first broadcast, not a copy of that), the right RTR deck and digitizing setup. A mismatch between tape format (track width on the tape) and RTR tape heads would be obvious, no?

(I note that mrfloydin never followed up on progress with his 4ch channel digitizing project...either here or on his website, which hasn't been updates since late 2015. Has anyone here been in touch with him since?)

 

[Mark Anderson]

I have owned some reels over the years, had friends who worked at radio stations at the time and stand 100% by my words

 

[par4ken]

I have owned some reels over the years, had friends who worked at radio stations at the time and stand 100% by my words

Mark, I suspect that you are correct; however the point is that discrete 4 channel master tapes must of existed at some point. Also you would wonder how CBS managed to sell any encoders to radio stations if none were supplied any discrete tapes. KBFH quad conversions exist, many from the SQ encoded source but others reported to be from the discrete reels?

 

[Bob Romano]

So I can for a fact state that the tapes were never 4 channel. This was discovered by working with the actual tapes. They are 2 channel 1/2 track tapes that will decode if you play them back on a 1/2 track machine. If you play them on a regular quad deck you will get a loud channel 1 a soft channel 2 a soft channel 3 and a loud channel 4. This is due the the track placement on the tape and the configuration of the heads. All of the conversions I did over the years are incorrect because I thought they were quad tapes. They are not. They are stereo SQ encoded tapes. You have to do some combining of channels to get the proper stereo channels. Then you can decode.

 

[Wagonmaster_91]

I doubt many radio stations had 4 channel reel-to-reel decks, especially in the broadcast studio. Maybe a few might have one in the production studio(s), but why would they - just for KBFH? Most had 1/4" mono, 1/4" stereo and many of the bigger stations had 1/2" stereo decks. My brother was a radio DJ at many stations throughout his career and this is what I saw when I visited the stations.

 

[par4ken]

I doubt many radio stations had 4 channel reel-to-reel decks, especially in the broadcast studio. Maybe a few might have one in the production studio(s), but why would they - just for KBFH? Most had 1/4" mono, 1/4" stereo and many of the bigger stations had 1/2" stereo decks. My brother was a radio DJ at many stations throughout his career and this is what I saw when I visited the stations.

No wonder broadcast quad never stood a chance!

 

[ssully]

So I can for a fact state that the tapes were never 4 channel. This was discovered by working with the actual tapes. They are 2 channel 1/2 track tapes that will decode if you play them back on a 1/2 track machine. If you play them on a regular quad deck you will get a loud channel 1 a soft channel 2 a soft channel 3 and a loud channel 4. This is due the the track placement on the tape and the configuration of the heads. All of the conversions I did over the years are incorrect because I thought they were quad tapes. They are not. They are stereo SQ encoded tapes. You have to do some combining of channels to get the proper stereo channels. Then you can decode.

I suspected as much when I referred to tape format/take head mismatch. Can you post a waveform of an example (1/2 track SQ encoded tape played on quad deck)?

If there is *some* output from all four channels when a 1/2 track tape is played on a quad deck, perhaps this is what confused mrfloydin?

 

[par4ken]

So, were they mixed direct to SQ or was there an intermediate Quad master done? It's starting to sound like discrete quad versions never existed?

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Another similar thread -
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ons-and-simulcasts-other-than-bbc-kbfh.20667/

 

[quicksrt]

So, were they mixed direct to SQ or was there an intermediate Quad master done? It's starting to sound like discrete quad versions never existed?

That is a good question? I would guess that 4-channel masters were created first.

(bumpety-bump)

 

[quicksrt]

So I can for a fact state that the tapes were never 4 channel. This was discovered by working with the actual tapes. They are 2 channel 1/2 track tapes that will decode if you play them back on a 1/2 track machine. If you play them on a regular quad deck you will get a loud channel 1 a soft channel 2 a soft channel 3 and a loud channel 4. This is due the the track placement on the tape and the configuration of the heads. All of the conversions I did over the years are incorrect because I thought they were quad tapes. They are not. They are stereo SQ encoded tapes. You have to do some combining of channels to get the proper stereo channels. Then you can decode.

The Aerosmith / Gentle Giant DVD-A from the KBFH reel to reel that I heard was the best transfer of the Aerosmith '75 show that I have heard. Even if it is screwy as a quad program it's pretty darn nice sound quality of a firecracker of a show.