King Biscuit Flower Hour

[quicksrt]

Just SQ perhaps, but it will be interesting to run these KBFH shows through my SMv2 (they were recorded live off air by me in 76'-77' to a Teac A-2340 in stereo)

ERIC CLAPTON - King Biscuit Flower Hour 2/27/77 (SQ) Dallas, TX
Emerson, Lake and Palmer - 3/10/74 (SQ) *May have been a repeat show76'
-also have an Eric Clapton in Houston 76' (not on list)
-and a ZZ Top around 76' (not on list)

The only ZZ Top I have ever seen of a KBFH recording was Passaic, NJ 1980. A really hot recording and performance btw. Not SQ quad.

 

[furui_suterioo]

I came across this recently THE ROLLING STONES KBFH QUAD REEL 3CD I JUST WANT TO MAKE LOVE TO YOU Z01 | eBay it says discrete reel but it also mentions Involve Surround Master SQ, anyone have this?

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I came across this recently THE ROLLING STONES KBFH QUAD REEL 3CD I JUST WANT TO MAKE LOVE TO YOU Z01 | eBay it says discrete reel but it also mentions Involve Surround Master SQ, anyone have this?
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So looks like the other two CDs are the front channels on one and the rears on another; hopefully they're synchronized in time

And the first CD is then the SM SQ decode? But it wouldn't be discrete in the first place, if just taken off the broadcast would it (guess it does say "pre FM"?)

 

[Bob Romano]

I m doing another decode right now. maybe later today

 

[J. PUPSTER]

The only ZZ Top I have ever seen of a KBFH recording was Passaic, NJ 1980. A really hot recording and performance btw. Not SQ quad.

It doesn't appear any of mine are Quad encoded; but I've always loved these 1970's shows, especially that era of Clapton (supposedly it was a drunkards dream but the playing doesn't seem to suffer from what I hear.)

The ZZ Top I have is from around 1975-1976, and I recorded it live off air in Omaha, great show.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/venues-the-capitol-theatre-passaic-nj.192647/

 

[Bob Romano]

I have ;ots of the KBFH shows that I am sure are SQ quad but they are from reels so you have to figure out which channels go with which or you just get a mess. I have probably 67 or 7 in various states of completion right now. Just have to make sure they are correct first.

 

[quadaholic]

That is a good question? I would guess that 4-channel masters were created first.

(bumpety-bump)

quicksrt,

I think the best answer to your question about 4 channel masters for King Biscuit is that some were and some weren't. From what I understand, the bands were given a small budget to mix their shows. A lot were mixed at Manahattan and LA based studios, while others were done in places that were more convenient to the band (or their chosen mix engineer). I have communicated with one engineer who was involved in mixing king biscuit shows between 73 and 76 who stated that he NEVER saw or used a 4 track recorder during that time. On the other hand, you could easily imagine that mixes that were done at random locations might have only been able to produce a 4 track tape, which would then have to be encoded by the King biscuit folks. the ELP 74 thing had to have been mixed to 4 track (at least the lp mixes were), and it seems likely that someone like Andy Johns would have mixed the stones/brussels stuff to 4 track as well, as that was supposedly going to be a live lp before they scrapped the idea. In any case, the idea that all shows were mixed to discrete 4 track is incorrect, and as a result the idea that all shows on reel were sent out on "discrete quad" is not possible.

 

[quadaholic]

The Aerosmith / Gentle Giant DVD-A from the KBFH reel to reel that I heard was the best transfer of the Aerosmith '75 show that I have heard. Even if it is screwy as a quad program it's pretty darn nice sound quality of a firecracker of a show.

Quicksrt,
your mention of the aerosmith show being the best version you've heard is definitely spot on. The show was remixed later in 80's (probably due to the fire), and the remix is not nearly as good. As luck would have it, that is the version that is the easiest to find out on the trader sites. The original version that you prefer was supposedly mixed by Jack Douglas, and definitely sounds more exciting than the 80's one. The 4 channel split of the aerosmith show definitely adds "size" to the existing mix, while the 4 channel split of GG is just plain bizarre (and cool).

 

[Bob Romano]

I have those files from the original reels. I can work on them.

 

[quadaholic]

I have those files from the original reels. I can work on them.

I have a decode I could share if someone wants a link. It's not too bad.

 

[quadaholic]

I find it very cool that you have any SQ encoded material @texquad. Whether or not any SQ encoded Biscuit shows were transferred to cd remains a mystery. I have some and wonder if the SQ matrix is intact.

FWIW there are some shows that have more than just ambience in the rears----two that come to mind that I've heard, are The Stones In Brussels and ELP at Anaheim .(and there are conversions circulating on the web).

Fizzy, the answer to your question about SQ mixes going to cd is that some were and some weren't. While I have found that pretty much all the commercial cd's were remixed (maybe a couple of exceptions), the broadcast cd's that started coming out in the late 80's are a mixed bag. There are definitely some SQ sources to be found there, even up until the bitter end of the biscuit show. Stuff like the Yes 74 thing was never remixed, so that one always shows up in its' original form (albeit with the usual brick wall limiting. bleck),

 

[Charly Mann]

I have a decode I could share if someone wants a link. It's not too bad.

I would love to get the link to hear it.

 

[quadaholic]

I would love to get the link to hear it.

Charley, I'm not sure it is acceptable to post links here. Maybe pm ?

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Fizzy, the answer to your question about SQ mixes going to cd is that some were and some weren't. While I have found that pretty much all the commercial cd's were remixed (maybe a couple of exceptions), the broadcast cd's that started coming out in the late 80's are a mixed bag. There
are definitely some SQ sources to be found there, even up until the bitter end of the biscuit show. Stuff like the Yes 74 thing was never remixed, so that one always shows up in its' original form (albeit with the usual brick wall limiting. bleck),

I suppose it would help to know the exact date of the fire at the Biscuit Archive. Some time in the 80's leaves it open to speculate on a whole decade .
And of course there are some private recordings out there.

Different story for BBC cds , some are and some are not from the quad encodes. It all depends on the source , original broadcast tapes or new stereo mixes.

 

[quadaholic]

I suppose it would help to know the exact date of the fire at the Biscuit Archive. Some time in the 80's leaves it open to speculate on a whole decade .
And of course there are some private recordings out there.

Different story for BBC cds , some are and some are not from the quad encodes. It all depends on the source , original broadcast tapes or new stereo mixes.

Yes, it is all kind of a confusing mess trying to sort out which is which. I feel like I read somewhere that the fire was in 81, but it's still kind of random as to which quad shows did or didn't survive. BBC is equally confusing, as sometimes you get the same show being mixed by both the transcription service and the bbc proper. Ultimately , the best you can do is put it in the computer and take a look! I guess that's part of the fun.

 

[quicksrt]

So I can for a fact state that the tapes were never 4 channel. This was discovered by working with the actual tapes. They are 2 channel 1/2 track tapes that will decode if you play them back on a 1/2 track machine. If you play them on a regular quad deck you will get a loud channel 1 a soft channel 2 a soft channel 3 and a loud channel 4. This is due the the track placement on the tape and the configuration of the heads. All of the conversions I did over the years are incorrect because I thought they were quad tapes. They are not. They are stereo SQ encoded tapes. You have to do some combining of channels to get the proper stereo channels. Then you can decode.

I have those files from the original reels. I can work on them.

You mean bounce back the rear chans to front and then decode? Or do you have the tapes played properly into hi-rez?

That whole thing about 4-channel KBFH reels sent to radio seemed impossible to me. But regardless I am glad to know for sure.

Are the DVD-As out there with the Scotch 200 tape box mock-ups the ones without proper decoding?

 

[quicksrt]

Only the reel tapes sent to radio stations during the quad era are SQ encoded. Below is what I have listed on the radio discography from my actual conversations with Barry Ehrnmann in 1994

Barry Ehrnmann, President of Phoenix Media Group helped with the purchase
of the King Biscuit archives in the mid-nineties to negotiate with the bands
and labels for release of the performances on CD's, Barry reported that the
warehouse were the 2 channel quadraphonic matrixed encoded master tapes were
stored burned down and all were lost. Fortunately the 16 & 24 track reels
that were used to mix the quad encoded tapes were stored in a different
facility and he was able to use those and remix them for the CD's. Therefore
only the original 1/2 track 2 channel SQ reels sent to the radio stations
and copies made by folks on their home recorders contain the quad mix. CD's
issued later are not SQ encoded.

The Edgar Winter Group 1973 KBFH tapes would make a really hot Disc two in a deluxe edition of "They Only Come Out at Night". I believe that the show was recorded in Santa Monica at the Civic, one show after I saw them in Vegas on that tour. They were on fire during this period, Ronnie Montrose was still with the band.

Can you imagine the quad mix plus a live concert in a deluxe set?

There is also a Johnny Winter 1973 or 74 from his "Saint and Sinners" tour in the KBFH vaults. So a deluxe edition of that album could also be worked up into something great. That show is also very fine from what I have heard of it.

Glad to hear the multitracks are there. But sadly now it seems that they are in the hands of Wolfgang's Vault who would want a fortune most likely.

 

[quadaholic]

You mean bounce back the rear chans to front and then decode? Or do you have the tapes played properly into hi-rez?

That whole thing about 4-channel KBFH reels sent to radio seemed impossible to me. But regardless I am glad to know for sure.

Are the DVD-As out there with the Scotch 200 tape box mock-ups the ones without proper decoding?

Any of those torrents with the Scotch 200 box are SQ if you put the four channels back together properly. The only one that may not be is the Jefferson Starship one from 1980. I think the quad stuff was done long before that, but I could be wrong. I'm definitely not the last word, so others will probably know better than I. The torrents that come to mind that are going to be SQ are Aerosmith/Gentle Giant, James Taylor, Santana Balboa Stadium, Genesis 77, Mott/Argent, Chicago 74, Rod Stewart/Faces 75. They will theoretically decode as SQ, although the sound being split across 4 tracks makes things a little more complicated than need be.

 

[quicksrt]

Any of those torrents with the Scotch 200 box are SQ if you put the four channels back together properly. The only one that may not be is the Jefferson Starship one from 1980. I think the quad stuff was done long before that, but I could be wrong. I'm definitely not the last word, so others will probably know better than I. The torrents that come to mind that are going to be SQ are Aerosmith/Gentle Giant, James Taylor, Santana Balboa Stadium, Genesis 77, Mott/Argent, Chicago 74, Rod Stewart/Faces 75. They will theoretically decode as SQ, although the sound being split across 4 tracks makes things a little more complicated than need be.

So they are not decoded to quad (yet) in other words.

I was the one insisting that the 1980 Starship could not be quad. But I’d never seen a reel of that one, I owned the 3 sided LP set. I guess KB sent reels and LPs out at the same time for a little while?

I’m still happy to have the nice Reel to Reel transfers as they are because I collect KBFH shows as intensely as surround. The Scotch 200 boxes are cute!

 

[quadaholic]

So they are not decided to quad (yet) in other words.

I was the one insusting that the 1980 Starship could not be quad. But I’d never seen a reel of That one, I owned the 3 sided LP set. I guess KB sent reels and LPs out at the same time for a little while?

I’m still happy to have the nice Reel to Reel transfers as they are because I collect KBFH shows as intensely as surround. The Scotch 200 boxes are cute!

I'm not 100 percent positive, but I've looked at the Jefferson Starship thing a couple of times and I don't think it is quad. I think that show was the last one on reel to reel, and it also went out as lp, it looks like. And yes, those previous torrents I talked about are not decoded in the form they are presently in. The end of the quad shows is a big question mark, as even though the announcements at the beginning of the show stop in early 77, there still might be some that snuck through after that. At the same time, there are some shows before the supposed end of the quad broadcasts that seem like they are only stereo.