King Crimson in 5.1?!

[timbre4]

Got my shipping notice on the Court box set this morning..it's on the way...woohoo!

Ditto - hope it gets across the pond for time off next week.

 

[hschoot]

Got an email that my 6 disc set has been posted. Normally takes only 1 day to arrive in the Netherlands! :sun

 

[neil wilkes]

Ok. I went into Amsterdam to see if any of the main dealers had Pioneer Firmware Upgrades. They looked at me like I was from Mars and tried to sell me a Universal Pioneer BluRay player that turned out not to play DVD-A. While waiting I noticed an ex demo Denon DV 1940 which I ended up taking home for a little over 100 Euros. I had thought it was one of the above but NOT.

It does play Lizard perfectly and with great clarity.... it also plays the Trex Electric Warrior SACD without problem unlike the Pioneer. The only problem is Bass Management and that it needs to be Region Free. The region free seems to be fixable. The DVD-A's seem Bass Free (good for neighbours). I have yet to discover separate bass management tools for DVD-A as against SACD. Bass on the SACD's seem fine.Will muddle on. If anyone has any idea how to upgrade firmware on the Pioneers, would appreciate it.

Lizard is outstanding in every way. This restoration will ensure it will live on to be appreciated in an another time when its ambition can be truly realised. More later...

What is your player model?

 

[channelar]

What is your player model?

Sorry Neil. Missed this while travelling.

I have three Pioneers DV-655A, DV-676A (AU) and DV-656A (NL). The DV-655A and DV-656A both have the same issue with Track 4 on Lizard. The DV-656A will not play the Hi Res Tracks on any of the discs but will play the extras.

The Denon is a DV-1940.Plays all discs properly. Bass problems fixed. Need to apply region free upgrade but found this on the UK Denon site. Haven't done it yet. For some reason the SACD's seem to sound better than the DVD-A's but both sound good.

Last week I added an Oppo MultiZone BD-83 BluRay Player. All the discs sound incredible on this and work fine. Should sound even more incredible when the SE D/A conversion upgrade kit becomes available next month.

 

[ferret-e]

The same problem - with dvda track 4 - on Pioneer 668AV. And pauses between track in dvdv-side...((

 

[neil wilkes]

This track 4 issue on Pioneer players is frankly a mystery to me.
I need to get it sorted out though, as I need to understand the problem.
The gapping in the DTS stream is a combination of an authoring bug and a player bug combining to cause me a headache.
It is now fixed here so will not recur, and US pressings of LIZARD will also cure this issue.
I have a solution for others though - please drop me a PM with email address to get a fix if affected.

Moving back to track 4.
Can those of you with this problem please let me know if the submenus are appearing properly in previous tracks?
When you go into the main album, you will see the track graphic and to the lower right you will also see "Next", "Playlist" & "Main Menu".
Do these function properly?
Also, the way the disc is set up sees track 4 subdivided into 4 parts too - but there are no problems reported like this with anything except Pioneer players to date.
What I can try is a written version where all tracks in MLP are set for sequential playback (although this should simply never need to happen)
Cannot test it though as I cannot reproduce the problem.

The 656 not playing anything yet playing the extras sounds as if there is an issue here with PGC Block authoring where I have put both stereo & 5.1 streams in Group 1.
I have seen this crop up again on other Pioneer players, as well as 2 Oppo (970 & 971) and a couple of Onkyo. Onkyo have fixed the issue, but Oppo have not yet fixed the problem although they have confirmed it's existence on a very small number of players and it is to do with the 16:9 formatting & PTP Mastering.

Pioneer are a pain in the proverbial.
I will try to find out why this is happening, and will be contacting Pioneer today in furtherance of this.

 

[splinter7]

Looks like the US release of Lizard has been pushed back again. Now to January 12th according to Amazon.com & Music Tap.

 

[boxhead]

Moving back to track 4.
Can those of you with this problem please let me know if the submenus are appearing properly in previous tracks?
When you go into the main album, you will see the track graphic and to the lower right you will also see "Next", "Playlist" & "Main Menu".
Do these function properly?
Also, the way the disc is set up sees track 4 subdivided into 4 parts too - but there are no problems reported like this with anything except Pioneer players to date.
What I can try is a written version where all tracks in MLP are set for sequential playback (although this should simply never need to happen)
Cannot test it though as I cannot reproduce the problem.

Okay I've done some testing on my Pioneer DV-45A that may help.

The submenus appear to be working perfectly. "Next", "Previous", "Playlist" & "Main Menu" all work as expected on all 5 tracks, notwithstanding the error if you let track 3 play into track 4. ie If I select Track 4 from the playlist, then the submenus on that page work correctly.

As mentioned previously, the problem occurs when playback is started from Track 1 (or 2 or 3 for that matter) and continues onto Track 4. At that point the graphic for Track 4 appears and the counter on the player increments as normal, but there is no sound. I have made the following observations under these conditions:

1. Using the "Next" or "Previous" submenus results in the appropriate song graphic being displayed but the player endlessly searches for the track and playback does not commence.

2. Using the "Playlist" or "Main Menu" submenus has no effect (ie no playlist or menu is displayed) and the player goes into endless search mode.

3. While the player is in "endless search mode" pretty well all buttons on the remote cease to function. The exceptions are "Power" (which behaves as expected) and "Stop". Once "Stop" is selected, the only effective button is "Title" which behaves as expected. From here I can select Track 4 and get normal playback.

4. In the previous example, if I press "Stop" followed by "Play", the player returns to endless search mode.

5. The Next/Prev buttons on the remote (not the submenus) do not result in the correct graphic being displayed (which is different to point 1), but the player still goes into endless search mode.

Just to clarify, "endless search mode" as I describe it has the player in a state where the 'search' graphic is flashing on the players display, the desired track number is displayed on the players display but there is no time information. ie it looks like it it searching for the desired track, but it never finds it.

Hope this helps Neil. Please let me know if you want any more scenarios tested.

 

[G E]

This track 4 issue on Pioneer players is frankly a mystery to me.
....
Moving back to track 4.
Can those of you with this problem please let me know if the submenus are appearing properly in previous tracks?

Neil,
I have an affected Pioneer dv79avi universal player and will have some time in the next few days to try your suggestions. I will report back.

ge

 

[G E]

This track 4 issue on Pioneer players is frankly a mystery to me.
I need to get it sorted out though, as I need to understand the problem.
The gapping in the DTS stream is a combination of an authoring bug and a player bug combining to cause me a headache.
It is now fixed here so will not recur, and US pressings of LIZARD will also cure this issue.
I have a solution for others though - please drop me a PM with email address to get a fix if affected.

Moving back to track 4.
Can those of you with this problem please let me know if the submenus are appearing properly in previous tracks?
When you go into the main album, you will see the track graphic and to the lower right you will also see "Next", "Playlist" & "Main Menu".
Do these function properly?
Also, the way the disc is set up sees track 4 subdivided into 4 parts too - but there are no problems reported like this with anything except Pioneer players to date.
What I can try is a written version where all tracks in MLP are set for sequential playback (although this should simply never need to happen)
Cannot test it though as I cannot reproduce the problem.

The 656 not playing anything yet playing the extras sounds as if there is an issue here with PGC Block authoring where I have put both stereo & 5.1 streams in Group 1.
I have seen this crop up again on other Pioneer players, as well as 2 Oppo (970 & 971) and a couple of Onkyo. Onkyo have fixed the issue, but Oppo have not yet fixed the problem although they have confirmed it's existence on a very small number of players and it is to do with the 16:9 formatting & PTP Mastering.

Pioneer are a pain in the proverbial.
I will try to find out why this is happening, and will be contacting Pioneer today in furtherance of this.

Here is the firmware info for my Pioneer Elite DV-79avi (U.S. model number)
Region 1 ver: 1.026 (16) / av1:2.0/2.8
It has played every other SACD, DVD-a and DTS disc I own without issue and I have quite a few in my library now, including RED and ItCotCK

My Lizard Disc does not play continuously from track 3 to track 4 (Lady of the Dancing Water) in MLP 5.1 (dvd-a surround). It loses sound when it goes to track 4 but the time counter ticks down though. Tonight I sat out Track 4 and it went to track 5, but also without sound. If I attempt to navigate to another track while playing 4 or 5 the player hangs. I can fast forward for one attempt but then the player hangs. I have to open the tray and restart the disc to become operational.

Again, if I wait until the last few seconds of track 3 I can jump to track 4 via remote and "lady Dancing Water" and the rest of the disc plays fine.

Something of note - all the MLP Stereo renditions, the DTS and the linear stereo tracks do not have this issue: Only the MLP surround program.

I noticed the MLP portions of the disc (5.1, stereo original and stereo 2009 mix) all show 9 tracks. There does not seem to be any content in track 9 - it appears only briefly and then I am taken back to the main menu. The DTS and the linear selections all show 8 tracks.

One more observation: MLP 5.1 is listed as Group 1, Original Stereo Mix is Group 1, 2009 Stereo is Group 2 of 6, DTS is Group 4, and the two linears tracks are 5 and 6. The extras appear in Group 3. I am curious as to why the 5.1 and original stereo mix share a grouping.

I hope this sheds some light on the issue at hand. Neil, please ask any other questions to help sort it all out.

ge

 

[terry]

Again, little bass coming out of the subwoofer for the DVD-A of Court. Why is this band so bass shy? Red is even quieter in the low end.

 

[G E]

Again, little bass coming out of the subwoofer for the DVD-A of Court. Why is this band so bass shy? Red is even quieter in the low end.

Neither of these recordings features much if any low register bass.

Some upcoming discs do: Ladies of the Road on the recording Islands and there are several moments within Larks Tongues.

Explosive percussion does feature regularly and there are plenty of treats ahead!

 

[timbre4]

Again, little bass coming out of the subwoofer for the DVD-A of Court. Why is this band so bass shy? Red is even quieter in the low end.

Check your player's bass mgmt as Court DVD-A seems reasonably healthy in this regard, Red maybe somewhat less so.

 

[simonwagstaff]

No problems with the bottom end here, at least in 5.1. I haven't gotten around to the stereo mixes yet.....

 

[wavelength]

Again, little bass coming out of the subwoofer for the DVD-A of Court. Why is this band so bass shy? Red is even quieter in the low end.

If you have a powered sub you can increase the subwoofer output by running the line-out from the dvd player directly to the subwoofer. That's what I do - makes quite a difference.

 

[ssully]

Neither of these recordings features much if any low register bass.

Some upcoming discs do: Ladies of the Road on the recording Islands and there are several moments within Larks Tongues.

Explosive percussion does feature regularly and there are plenty of treats ahead!

Since these are normal early 70s multis, it's really a matter of mixer discretion as to how bass much there is per channel, and how loud it is in the mix.

If you want 'digital' era subwoofer output, listen to the timpani whacks on 'Epitaph'.

 

[ssully]

If you have a powered sub you can increase the subwoofer output by running the line-out from the dvd player directly to the subwoofer. That's what I do - makes quite a difference.

That only indicates difference in channel level and bass management between your DVDP and AVR. You could probably make them sound the same if you wanted to

 

[LizardKing]

Okay I've done some testing on my Pioneer DV-45A that may help.

The submenus appear to be working perfectly. "Next", "Previous", "Playlist" & "Main Menu" all work as expected on all 5 tracks, notwithstanding the error if you let track 3 play into track 4. ie If I select Track 4 from the playlist, then the submenus on that page work correctly.

As mentioned previously, the problem occurs when playback is started from Track 1 (or 2 or 3 for that matter) and continues onto Track 4. At that point the graphic for Track 4 appears and the counter on the player increments as normal, but there is no sound. I have made the following observations under these conditions:

1. Using the "Next" or "Previous" submenus results in the appropriate song graphic being displayed but the player endlessly searches for the track and playback does not commence.

2. Using the "Playlist" or "Main Menu" submenus has no effect (ie no playlist or menu is displayed) and the player goes into endless search mode.

3. While the player is in "endless search mode" pretty well all buttons on the remote cease to function. The exceptions are "Power" (which behaves as expected) and "Stop". Once "Stop" is selected, the only effective button is "Title" which behaves as expected. From here I can select Track 4 and get normal playback.

4. In the previous example, if I press "Stop" followed by "Play", the player returns to endless search mode.

5. The Next/Prev buttons on the remote (not the submenus) do not result in the correct graphic being displayed (which is different to point 1), but the player still goes into endless search mode.

Just to clarify, "endless search mode" as I describe it has the player in a state where the 'search' graphic is flashing on the players display, the desired track number is displayed on the players display but there is no time information. ie it looks like it it searching for the desired track, but it never finds it.

Hope this helps Neil. Please let me know if you want any more scenarios tested.

I get exactly the same behaviour on my DV-655A....also the submenus all work...

 

[neil wilkes]

Still waiting from Pioneer about this one.
As soon as I get a reply, I will post it here.
This problem *only* seems to happen on Pioneer players.

ARe all of you definitely on the latest firmware for these??

 

[Ge Someone]

Still waiting from Pioneer about this one.

Do you think you'll get a appropriate answer anytime?