List of Q8's with swapped channels

[yodedude2]

Couldn't one approximate a figure 8 pan with a joystick?

i did that alla time on my montgomery wards am/fm/16-33-45-78 record player/quad 8 player unit when i was 13 way back when. yeah, i was a spoiled kid. sure was fun, though.

 

[jimfisheye]

Couldn't one approximate a figure 8 pan with a joystick?

Sure. (Well, depending. There were some early joysticks that just did a 360 circle. No cross-ways.)

I mean the obvious fast ones where you're spinning it around like a leslie. Where you wouldn't be able to move that fast in a figure 8.

Otherwise yeah, it's just too ambiguous to tell sometimes!
And you can't guess by 'convention' with some of these because maybe the lead vocal WAS in fact mixed to the rear left channel.

 

[quadsearcher]

I mean the obvious fast ones where you're spinning it around like a leslie. Where you wouldn't be able to move that fast in a figure 8.

OK, yeah, I see what you mean.

 

[MidiMagic]

When they make discrete recordings with each part in only one track, there is no way to know which track goes where. They could mix them up and nobody would be the wiser.

 

[quadaholic]

I always assumed that the drums going from FL to RR was intentional. It wouldn't be the weirdest thing I've heard in an old quad mix. Another common thing that seems odd by todays standards is when the bass drum goes in one rear channel and the snare goes to the other. I expect the marketing folks were looking for something "unsubtle" so help sell systems. Also, didn't Black Sabbath Paranoid have some weird drum panning stuff in it?

 

[Wagonmaster_91]

Sometimes when I am mixing/upmixing, I will have a sound cross mix FL - RR, RF-LR, etc. - to bring the sound out through the room rather than just travel down the left or right side. So some of these weird mixes could be intentional.

 

[par4ken]

If it sounds good why worry about if it was what was intended. If it sounds better with channels swapped in some way, go for it. That's the beauty of modern technology.

 

[jimfisheye]

Some of the mixes from the era could be more properly called 4 channel mono or quad mono. In the same way that some early stereo mixes were more dual mono than imaged stereo. I don't think there's actually an official term. The old school mix style that doesn't consider or use the concept of imaging a sound with all the speakers working in an array. Ambisonic style mixes rely on a reference grade speaker array with precise calibration. Everything is a phantom image! That leaves out anyone without a reference grade setup. The hybrid style mix has kind of settled in. Old school discrete elements that will directly come out of just about any speaker mixed with some imaged elements.

Anyway, unless there's a direct clue from a fast 360 deg spinning around the room pan, good luck trying to determine the correct channels for a few of these!

 

[par4ken]

Some of the mixes from the era could be more properly called 4 channel mono or quad mono. In the same way that some early stereo mixes were more dual mono than imaged stereo. I don't think there's actually an official term. The old school mix style that doesn't consider or use the concept of imaging a sound with all the speakers working in an array. Ambisonic style mixes rely on a reference grade speaker array with precise calibration. Everything is a phantom image! That leaves out anyone without a reference grade setup. The hybrid style mix has kind of settled in. Old school discrete elements that will directly come out of just about any speaker mixed with some imaged elements.

Anyway, unless there's a direct clue from a fast 360 deg spinning around the room pan, good luck trying to determine the correct channels for a few of these!

A lot of stereo mixes are dual mono or triple mono if you count the center, as well. A really good quad mix should image the same across the front as a good stereo mix. Imaging in other directions is not as precise but still there. As long as a lot is going on (immersive mix) I'm happy, multi-mono or not.

Ambisonics has always sounded interesting to me but lack of program material has always kept me from jumping in. With everything a phantom image you would have to be stuck firmly in your optimum seating position, not always practical/desirable.

 

[jimfisheye]

I don't mean to rank different techniques with that comment. Just a matter of fact observation.

Using a speaker array to image sounds opens up a sound stage to play with. But it requires a certain base level of reproduction capability and system calibration. If you can't even hear a phantom center between two speakers, you're not invited to this party. Simple discrete use of individual speakers is pretty matter of fact but more limiting. Ambisonics is everything imaged. Kind of all or nothing on your setup.

 

[Quadmon]

I have a Q8 Best of Tommy James that has a figure 8 mix on Crimson and Clover chorus. Always thought that was cool and played it many times for friends. Then someone gave me a disc made from a sharing site and the chorus was 360. It’s cool also. I prefer the figure 8. Maybe because I had always heard it that way.

 

[ArnoldLayne1970]

I don't recall seeing mentioned here but Pink Floyd's WYWH Q8 is swapped left and right in both fronts and rears.

 

[ssully]

i only spot checked a few minutes with a casual listen; i will visit it again soon and take notes. near the start, the violin was in the front left, guitar in the front right (as you describe). on at least one track, there was piano/keys in the rears; one track had guitar in the left rear. so, the q8 mix was not consistent for the whole album in regards to instrument placement...

edit: q8 mix is primarily violin - keys - guitar in the fronts, like your description of the 'original stereo mix'. also, the drums at the start of 'one word' do circle; becomes mostly audible in the LR, moves to LF, RF, RR, and then ends with that 'hit' in the LR.

Thanks!

This suggests that AF screwed up the quad release on its SACD.

 

[fredblue]

I always assumed that the drums going from FL to RR was intentional. It wouldn't be the weirdest thing I've heard in an old quad mix. Another common thing that seems odd by todays standards is when the bass drum goes in one rear channel and the snare goes to the other. I expect the marketing folks were looking for something "unsubtle" so help sell systems. Also, didn't Black Sabbath Paranoid have some weird drum panning stuff in it?

while i can't say in this exact instance, Quad diagonal pans were definitely intentional.
there's instances of Vanguard engineers using them to great effect (Eleventh House w/Larry Coryell) and CBS (Art Garfunkel's Breakaway) plus PIR used them on some of their Quads.

PIR's main Quad Engineer Arthur Stoppe talked about it in relation to the use of the "Centre" position (as in Centre of the Room) which PIR achieved with diagonal panning and placement since if you tried to image something in the Room Centre by having the same sound emanate from all 4 channels simultaneously in SQ this would result in the sound cancelling out altogether.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

while i can't say in this exact instance, Quad diagonal pans were definitely intentional.
there's instances of Vanguard engineers using them to great effect (Eleventh House w/Larry Coryell) and CBS (Art Garfunkel's Breakaway) plus PIR used them on some of their Quads.

PIR's main Quad Engineer Arthur Stoppe talked about it in relation to the use of the "Centre" position (as in Centre of the Room) which PIR achieved with diagonal panning and placement since if you tried to image something in the Room Centre by having the same sound emanate from all 4 channels simultaneously in SQ this would result in the sound cancelling out altogether.

So could a relatively effective center room position be accomplished with 3 speakers; and the middle of the 3 slightly further out along with moving through a shifting position time line quickly?

 

[fredblue]

So could a relatively effective center room position be accomplished with 3 speakers; and the middle of the 3 slightly further out along with moving through a shifting position time line quickly?

hmmmmmmm.... i don't know Mister Pupster.. but this delicious pre-mixed Pina Colada makes everything sound like its in my faaaaaace which is kinda the centre of the room i guess?! woohooooo!!!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

hmmmmmmm.... i don't know Mister Pupster.. but this delicious pre-mixed Pina Colada makes everything sound like its in my faaaaaace which is kinda the centre of the room i guess?! woohooooo!!!

just remember to move your centre to center for optimal pleasure Freddie
I may have to try that with some fancy DAW work; and where’s my Involve encoder board, I’m needing a new toy… @chucky3042 ???

 

[MidiMagic]

while i can't say in this exact instance, Quad diagonal pans were definitely intentional.
there's instances of Vanguard engineers using them to great effect (Eleventh House w/Larry Coryell) and CBS (Art Garfunkel's Breakaway) plus PIR used them on some of their Quads.

PIR's main Quad Engineer Arthur Stoppe talked about it in relation to the use of the "Centre" position (as in Centre of the Room) which PIR achieved with diagonal panning and placement since if you tried to image something in the Room Centre by having the same sound emanate from all 4 channels simultaneously in SQ this would result in the sound cancelling out altogether.

Somehow my text disappeared. I will re-enter it.

Feeding all 4 channels simultaneously using the 4-corners SQ encoder gives a LF-RB diagonal split. It does not cancel out.

 

[MidiMagic]

THIS explains why Bauer was interested in diagonal splits.

On the other hand, QS lets you put sounds in the center of the room with all 4 speakers equal.

 

[ssully]

while i can't say in this exact instance, Quad diagonal pans were definitely intentional.
there's instances of Vanguard engineers using them to great effect (Eleventh House w/Larry Coryell) and CBS (Art Garfunkel's Breakaway) plus PIR used them on some of their Quads.

PIR's main Quad Engineer Arthur Stoppe talked about it in relation to the use of the "Centre" position (as in Centre of the Room) which PIR achieved with diagonal panning and placement since if you tried to image something in the Room Centre by having the same sound emanate from all 4 channels simultaneously in SQ this would result in the sound cancelling out altogether.

Imaging the drums in Room Centre is clearly not what the mixers of Birds of Fire were going for.