HiRez Poll Mahavishnu Orchestra, The - BIRDS OF FIRE [SACD]

[Daniel John]

The Behringers are crossed over to the sub at 80 Hz, which is well above their -3dB point. I wouldn't call them smallish. Point is, it wouldn't matter if I had four 'full-range' towers (which really aren't 'full range') instead; I don't like that aesthetic choice for a mix (drums all behind/beside me). I'm not a fan of panning any main instrument exclusively to the surrounds.

So you prefer ambient, reverb type sounds from your rear speakers? My rig is set up in our living room. I usually sit at a mid point in the room when listening to multichannel media so I don't mind getting hit from all sides. I never realized what I was missing until I upgraded my rear speakers. There's a tune on BOF where the audio circles around all 4 speakers (sorry forgot the name of the tune), very cool mix.

 

[himey]

So you prefer ambient, reverb type sounds from your rear speakers? My rig is set up in our living room. I usually sit at a mid point in the room when listening to multichannel media so I don't mind getting hit from all sides. I never realized what I was missing until I upgraded my rear speakers. There's a tune on BOF where the audio circles around all 4 speakers (sorry forgot the name of the tune), very cool mix.

Same here. Funny that people who have never compared the difference still argue that full range rears can't make a difference. Maybe #Bill Mac can chime in...

 

[Spock]

What do you guys consider fullrange speakers - how low should they perform -3 dB?

 

[The56Kid]

So you prefer ambient, reverb type sounds from your rear speakers? My rig is set up in our living room. I usually sit at a mid point in the room when listening to multichannel media so I don't mind getting hit from all sides. I never realized what I was missing until I upgraded my rear speakers. There's a tune on BOF where the audio circles around all 4 speakers (sorry forgot the name of the tune), very cool mix.

I only just completed my speaker upgrade to the Monitor Audio Silver series two years ago and have thoroughly loved them since. However, BOF and to a lesser degree the Jeff Beck Group Orange album SACD are prime examples for the acquisition of matched front/rear speaker pairs. This phenomenon isn't as prevalent when modern day 5.1 surround mixes are involved, but certainly is the case with a number of older quad mixes. Oh well... someday!

 

[Daniel John]

What do you guys consider fullrange speakers - how low should they perform -3 dB?

Ideally the rears should be identical to the fronts. But for me I ended up getting towers for the front and moved my old fronts to the back of the room. They replaced a pair of bookcase style speakers. Now I hear way more content. Wife is cool and doesn't mind large speakers in four corners of our livingroom.

 

[The56Kid]

Ideally the rears should be identical to the fronts. But for me I ended up getting towers for the front and moved my old fronts to the back of the room. They replaced a pair of bookcase style speakers. Now I hear way more content. Wife is cool and doesn't mind large speakers in four corners of our livingroom.

I have my setup in a finished room in the basement that the family doesn't frequent much, if ever. So the eventual graduation to floor stander surrounds isn't an issue from an aesthetics standpoint. Merely an economic one at this point in time!

 

[Daniel John]

I only just completed my speaker upgrade to the Monitor Audio Silver series two years ago and have thoroughly loved them since. However, BOF and to a lesser degree the Jeff Beck Group Orange album SACD are prime examples for the acquisition of matched front/rear speaker pairs. This phenomenon isn't as prevalent when modern day 5.1 surround mixes are involved, but certainly is the case with a number of older quad mixes. Oh well... someday!

I'm finding that more and more multichannel content that is using all speakers. And I don't mean just ambient type sound in the rears. WIRED, BBA and Rough and Ready are also quad.

Perhaps studios are in cahoots with the hardware industry to get people to upgrade their systems...

 

[ssully]

So you prefer ambient, reverb type sounds from your rear speakers?

Try reading this again, perhaps more slowly this time

I'm not a fan of panning any main instrument exclusively to the surrounds.

 

[ssully]

Same here. Funny that people who have never compared the difference still argue that full range rears can't make a difference. Maybe #Bill Mac can chime in...

So, drums panned entirely to the rear channels, no longer sound entirely panned to the rear channels when you use four 'full range' [sic] towers?

That's a difference I can get behind! Sign me up!

 

[Daniel John]

Try reading this again, perhaps more slowly this time

I'm not a fan of panning any main instrument exclusively to the surrounds.

I wasn't a fan either until I upgraded my rear speakers to something better than bookcase. Now it's sonic bliss.
To each his own dude!

 

[himey]

So, drums panned entirely to the rear channels, no longer sound entirely panned to the rear channels when you use four 'full range' [sic] towers?

That's a difference I can get behind! Sign me up!

The subject did get changed and I wasn't specifically referring to your post and that's why I didn't quote yours.

 

[The56Kid]

I'm personally not a proponent of having drums or bass in the surrounds as, at least to me, they are the anchor for most of the music I listen to. Please place both prominently across the front stage and I'm a happy camper!

 

[quicksrt]

Then this quad SACD can be remixed at home to suit ones desired drum positioning.

Put drums in front speakers, put front into surrounds, bleed a tiny bit of reverb (from rear surrounds) into fronts where drums are.

Then the whole thing might be more satisfactory for some.

Me I am ok with drums in surrounds. My rear speakers are to the L and R side of the couch, and not behind me. It sounds fine with me the way it is.

 

[Daniel John]

Then this quad SACD can be remixed at home to suit ones desired drum positioning.

Put drums in front speakers, put front into surrounds, bleed a tiny bit of reverb (from rear surrounds) into fronts where drums are.

Then the whole thing might be more satisfactory for some.

Me I am ok with drums in surrounds. My rear speakers are to the L and R side of the couch, and not behind me. It sounds fine with me the way it is.

We have similar setup. My rear speakers are on each side of the couch toed in slightly, they are not behind me. I do have a 7.2 receiver but have not purchased another set of speakers for back. But as previously mentioned I typically sit in middle of the room at equal distance to all speakers except my sub which is a little farther from that vantage point. This is my sweet spot.

I think for some, the issue is they are using smallish, bookcase, monitor or satellite type speakers for their rears (which was my case for many years). These types of speakers are great for movies and ambient sound, live music audience applause etc...but when the music pushes them to really output such as for instruments, drums, bass obviously these speakers are not going to reproduce full range that a larger speaker can.

Most of us are at the mercy of the studio engineer, If he decides to pan drums to the left rear and you don't have the system that can handle that then it's not going to sound optimal.

 

[quicksrt]

We have similar setup. My rear speakers are on each side of the couch toed in slightly, they are not behind me. I do have a 7.2 receiver but have not purchased another set of speakers for back. But as previously mentioned I typically sit in middle of the room at equal distance to all speakers except my sub which is a little farther from that vantage point. This is my sweet spot.

I think for some, the issue is they are using smallish, bookcase, monitor or satellite type speakers for their rears (which was my case for many years). These types of speakers are great for movies and ambient sound, live music audience applause etc...but when the music pushes them to really output such as for instruments, drums, bass obviously these speakers are not going to reproduce full range that a larger speaker can.

Most of us are at the mercy of the studio engineer, If he decides to pan drums to the left rear and you don't have the system that can handle that then it's not going to sound optimal.

My rear speakers are Infinity's, bookshelfs, but too big to fit on a shelf (LOL). They are pointed in towards each side of couch. Not pointed to the center of room at all like the fronts. I need small stands for them to raise them off the ground just a tad.

I got this layout from Wendy Carlos' description of the best way to handle quad and 5.1.

 

[EMB]

Obviously, if something in the front or rears seems out of place, the easier solution is to use a swiveling chair in your 'sweet spot' and just turn 180 degrees and listen accordingly. Personally, I've never been bothered with percussion or bass isolated to the rears, even if it is not what you would hear under normal 'live' circumstances. Yet if quad were always mixed with concerts in mind, the rears would be pretty much ambience only, right?

As artificial and arbitrary as some think quad or 5.1 is, stereo has also always been just that: an artificial representation that is nothing like how we really hear: all around us, up and down in every direction and nuanced. Recording technology might come close to replicating that, but from a commercial standpoint, simply unfeasible for the masses.

ED

 

[ssully]

We have similar setup. My rear speakers are on each side of the couch toed in slightly, they are not behind me. I do have a 7.2 receiver but have not purchased another set of speakers for back. But as previously mentioned I typically sit in middle of the room at equal distance to all speakers except my sub which is a little farther from that vantage point. This is my sweet spot.

I think for some, the issue is they are using smallish, bookcase, monitor or satellite type speakers for their rears (which was my case for many years). These types of speakers are great for movies and ambient sound, live music audience applause etc...but when the music pushes them to really output such as for instruments, drums, bass obviously these speakers are not going to reproduce full range that a larger speaker can.

This can be true, or it can be nonsense, depending on what specific loudspeakers you are actually talking about -- how 'smallish' they are and how well they are designed -- and whether they are adequately crossed over to a subwoofer, and what SPL you are commonly subjecting yourself to, and whether each element of your system can handle that SPL without audible distortion

A properly crossed over sub + decent-sized 'bookshelf' speakers on stands can absolutely reproduce the 'full range' -- possibly *more* of the full range, and more accurately, that 4 towers (depending on their frequency response).

Most of us are at the mercy of the studio engineer, If he decides to pan drums to the left rear and you don't have the system that can handle that then it's not going to sound optimal.

It's no different than if you have that loudspeaker in front, and he pans them to left front.

Yes, 'cube'-sized speakers are not going to be able to integrate very smoothly with a true subwoofer. And it will be hard to balance the perceived output if the fronts are substantial and the center/rear/surrounds are tiny.

But substantial 'bookshelves'/monitors that are still flat at 80 Hz , with a -3dB pt at say ~55-60Hz , can do it. I have 5 identical ones all around and, plus a pretty good 15" subwoofer. Within their specified rangethese loudspeakers have very good objective on- and off-axis response (directivity) at a very good price for such level of performance, which is why I chose them. Conceivably they measure better in this regard than many a tower. With careful subwoofer positioning and some EQ I can adjust the setup to sound very well at one listening position (at others, the bass will suffer, but that could be fixed by adding more subs). Coverage of the full frequency range down to 20Hz is NOT an issue. It is NOT the issue I have with drums panned exclusively to one or more surround/rear channels. The issue is aesthetic, the issue is with mixing choice, it is a matter of listener preference and would not be ameliorated by replacing my monitors with towers.

 

[himey]

This can be true, or it can be nonsense, depending on what specific loudspeakers you are actually talking about -- how 'smallish' they are and how well they are designed -- and whether they are adequately crossed over to a subwoofer, and what SPL you are commonly subjecting yourself to, and whether each element of your system can handle that SPL without audible distortion

A properly crossed over sub + decent-sized 'bookshelf' speakers on stands can absolutely reproduce the 'full range' -- possibly *more* of the full range, and more accurately, that 4 towers (depending on their frequency response).




It's no different than if you have that loudspeaker in front, and he pans them to left front.

Yes, 'cube'-sized speakers are not going to be able to integrate very smoothly with a true subwoofer. And it will be hard to balance the perceived output if the fronts are substantial and the center/rear/surrounds are tiny.

But substantial 'bookshelves'/monitors that are still flat at 80 Hz , with a -3dB pt at say ~55-60Hz , can do it. I have 5 identical ones all around and, plus a pretty good 15" subwoofer. Within their specified rangethese loudspeakers have very good objective on- and off-axis response (directivity) at a very good price for such level of performance, which is why I chose them. Conceivably they measure better in this regard than many a tower. With careful subwoofer positioning and some EQ I can adjust the setup to sound very well at one listening position (at others, the bass will suffer, but that could be fixed by adding more subs). Coverage of the full frequency range down to 20Hz is NOT an issue. It is NOT the issue I have with drums panned exclusively to one or more surround/rear channels. The issue is aesthetic, the issue is with mixing choice, it is a matter of listener preference and would not be ameliorated by replacing my monitors with towers.

Please be happy with your setup but don't argue this.

 

[fredblue]

can't remember where I left off with fiddling around with the SQ vs SACD of this but seeing the thread here again has prompted me to give it another go and listening to the 4 tracks in isolation just now I noticed during "One Word" that the Fronts are swapped on the SQ relative to the AF Surround SACD.

the drum roll goes around the room in a circular pan on the SQ LP decoded thru the Surround Master
(drums go from Front Right to Rear Right to Rear Left to Front Left to Front Right to Rear Right with a snap of the drum in Rear Left)

unlike the zig zag of the AF Surround SACD
(drums go from Front Left to Rear Right to Rear Left to Front Right to Front Left to Rear Right with a snap of the drum in Rear Left)

rhythm guitar is in Front Left on the decoded SQ LP and in Front Right on the AF Surround SACD with the shredding lead guitar in the Front Right on the decoded SQ LP and Front Left on the AF Surround SACD

while the rear channels are the same config on both decoded SQ LP and AF Surround SACD (bass, kick drum and cymbal are in Rear Left and other parts of the kit are in Rear Right on both the SQ LP and the AF Surround SACD).

 

[ssully]

Please be happy with your setup but don't argue this.

Um...I already have.

Who appointed you moderator, btw? Congratulations.