Misconceptions about "Sunflower" so-called quad

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT to Derek:

I don't know how to impart that NO Beach Boy release to date was ever recorded in anything but two-channel sound, other than just stating it. You seem to keep wanting to make Beach Boy records into something they are not. The reference to "ambient" sound by engineer Moffett only means that some stereo pair mics were utilized. And, center channel quad merely references the center mic (L=R) placed between the two stereo mics. It's just advertising hype, not any engineering term. Even going back to the multi-track and re-mixing to 5.1 is still not the same, nor as effective as virtual surround -- if you stay in the sweet spot.
Stereo from two speakers is achieved via amplitude-related (AR) or phase-related (PR) differences between the signals sent to each speaker. In the case of multi-track productions a combination of AR and PR is often found. Sometimes I used simple X-Y configurations or M-S matrices, but those are commonly used by many engineers. Nothing wrong with them but if you are trying to achieve virtual surround using four or five microphone matrices is much more effective. I have two US patents and five International patents on the use of these more sophisticated recording matrices. These techniques were first applied when I recorded for the boys, then later the applications were re-worked into electronic equivalent circuits. (Applications cannot be patented. Circuits can). In my Patent(s) I described what was later sold and used by many engineers as type D Spatialization (r). It was a method to record virtual surround using multiple microphones and the Type D matrix found in the ProSpatializer.
All of these early matrices were an attempt to overcome head related transfer functions (HRTF) and to my hearing were not very successful. HRTF's present a problem to the brain because it never evolved to hear sound from two speakers. The brain evolved to process sound originating from single point sources. Ever wonder why stereo images only between the two speakers? The reason is HRTF. My patents and recording techniques were awarded patends because they presented a system whereby the HRTF problem was successfully overcome. I can record something so that it images beyond the speakers, and further, to seem to be over your shoulder or in front of your nose. Engineer Michael Bishop, who posted earlier, once engineered a Telarc disc, using my (joystick) device, in which the perspective is that listener has an apple on his head and an archer sends his arrow from a distant center, strikes the apple, and then continues beyond (behind) the listener. This all with only two speakers. To Mr. Bishop's credit, he worked hard to achieve this spatial impression, but he did make it work. It would have been easy to just make the arrow go left to right, but Michael went that extra mile and the effect is very much heard.
I've used such gimmicky sound effects for the boys, once with sirens moving around the sound field and another with Santa's slay taking flight and moving around the room.
Nevertheless, these are not quad, or 5.1, but virtual two-speaker stereo -- sometimes called 3D Stereo. I'm not fond of that term, but the advertising folks seem to like it. It does, after all, capture and present to the listener the three "Ds" -- Direction - Dimension - Depth.
Look for a private message from me in your in-box. ~swd

 

[rustyandi]

COMMENT to Derek:

I don't know how to impart that NO Beach Boy release to date was ever recorded in anything but two-channel sound, other than just stating it. You seem to keep wanting to make Beach Boy records into something they are not.

Its strange how a great know-it-all has said that they are Quad

among others things

 

[Stephen W. Desper]

Its strange how a great know-it-all has said that they are Quad

among others things

COMMENT to rustyandi:

Huh? After reading your response several times, I still don't understand what you are saying. Could you elaborate?

I found this post back in the archives. (https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?16225-Dynaquad-adapters) This is the insert I drew that was included in the first FLAME album. It gives you 3dB of separation, which doesn't sound like much, but is all the ear/brain mechanism needs to sense a separation. i.e., If left is just 3dB louder than right, it sounds as if all sound is coming from the left. ~swd

 

[rustyandi]

There was a great disagreement between Myself and another former member
about decoding Quad Lps
He knew every thing
It is nothing to do with you or your recordings
It's just a snide remark

 

[willothewisp]

as you know rusty, i have been keeping an eye of things regarding the surround master as well as what the former member says about quadrophonics as well, and it comes to mind that you have a tendancy to have a dig at him for the slightest of reasons

as you may remember i looked at purchasing a suround master to replace my aging tate but having done some comparing from decodes done by the unit and the former member and going by your comments and views it is obvious that he does know what he is talking about and it is you who thinks he knows everything.

sorry if this is blunt but if you throw stones you should expect some to bounce back. if anyone wants to know the facts on subjects raised here it would be best to investigate things yourselves insted of listening to biased people

 

[willothewisp]

returning to the main subject. i do realise that mr desper has been very patient because he has had to state the same thing many times.

i would like to ask mr desper one thing. it is fair to say that the information that was put out by the record label and believed to be correct since then but has now been provn to be inorrect. so that is the end of the subject and i have imparted that to the person mentioned in the last to posts along with your explanaition.

The question is do you have any information on the work you did with how you used the microphone matrix. the reason i ask is because i have listened to the supposedly dy matrix albums decoded as if they were and the effect can be quite convincing. have you heard them?

 

[himey]

returning to the main subject. i do realise that mr desper has been very patient because he has had to state the same thing many times.

i would like to ask mr desper one thing. it is fair to say that the information that was put out by the record label and believed to be correct since then but has now been provn to be inorrect. so that is the end of the subject and i have imparted that to the person mentioned in the last to posts along with your explanaition.

The question is do you have any information on the work you did with how you used the microphone matrix. the reason i ask is because i have listened to the supposedly dy matrix albums decoded as if they were and the effect can be quite convincing. have you heard them?

Have you heard them as intended?

 

[Stephen W. Desper]

Have you heard them as intended?

COMMENT to Himey: I don't know what you mean by "dy matrix albums." Please explain. In general any stereo album can be put through any type of decoder and give you a surround effect. If what you hear doing this is pleasant to your ears, go for it. ~swd

 

[willothewisp]

Have you heard them as intended?

do you mean on a stereo system? if so yes. if not please explain what you mean

 

[himey]

COMMENT to Himey: I don't know what you mean by "dy matrix albums." Please explain. In general any stereo album can be put through any type of decoder and give you a surround effect. If what you hear doing this is pleasant to your ears, go for it. ~swd

You quoted the wrong person when it comes to "dy matrix albums" but like you said, pretty sure he meant upmixing through a decoder.

 

[himey]

do you mean on a stereo system? if so yes. if not please explain what you mean

Have you heard Sunflower and Surf's Up as intended on Mr Desper's website using two speakers. He posted the link here, The Study Videos. Your asking him if he has heard them upmixed, I am asking you if you have heard them in surround using two speakers as intended. Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

[willothewisp]

well although the original question was put to mr desper, thank you for the reply. and my reply to yourself is that if there is indeed only one mix of the albums in question thensurely all i have to do is put on the album rather than listening to a lower quality version over the internet.

i have never found surround sound over two speakers that works. i have heard several attempts by various people and my view is i have had a better experience listening to an sq album in stereo. sometimes you can get quite an interesting effect

the reason i asked the question was for the simple reason that perhaps the way he wired these microphones possibly mimicked the way a dy encoder worked. i thought it was a valid question

 

[himey]

well although the original question was put to mr desper, thank you for the reply. and my reply to yourself is that if there is indeed only one mix of the albums in question thensurely all i have to do is put on the album rather than listening to a lower quality version over the internet.

i have never found surround sound over two speakers that works. i have heard several attempts by various people and my view is i have had a better experience listening to an sq album in stereo. sometimes you can get quite an interesting effect

the reason i asked the question was for the simple reason that perhaps the way he wired these microphones possibly mimicked the way a dy encoder worked. i thought it was a valid question

Your mistaken on your facts. Read up on the subject. The standard stereo version is not what is on his webpage.

Your last sentence was a valid question a few weeks ago but it has been answered by Mr. Desper. You have some reading to do.

 

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:

I post here not to argue, but to clarify.

I thank everyone for guiding those fellow posters who may be a little lean in their research and understanding of these complex subjects.

Almost everything that may seem confusing or unusual can be made clearer by a visit to my website http://swdstudyvideos.com.

As to willothewisp's comments that they have never heard two speakers give a surround sound experience . . . I wish you could hear what is possible in the world of virtual surround sound. About the best I can offer is to visit my website and listen. If you don't hear surround by listening to the songs presented at my website, then you may be among the few percentage of the human population that is phase deaf and cannot experience phase related transfer functions.

You are probably too young to remember the reviews in professional publications of the Desper ProSpatializer, but those reviews by reputable engineers and producers clearly and without reserve state that this device can make sounds seem to image from anywhere in the sound field (around the room) propagated from two speakers. This device is used by every major movie and world class studio, or was used in the past, to expand the sound field.

We have only two ears.

Someday I will publish (on my website) a 250 page white paper on how this is possible. It is backed by a stack of pier reviewed research papers around 18 inches high. It is mostly about the neural behavior of the brain as it relates to sound processing, and is rather deep, but is still apropos.

When someone makes the comment that they cannot hear anything beyond the physical boundaries set by two speakers in a stereo system it reminds me of the test I did way back when developing virtual surround from two speakers. Here's the story . . .

In my small apartment living room I had two electrostatic loudspeakers spaced about eight feet apart. The listening couch was about ten feet back from the speakers, with nothing in-between. Behind the couch were some windows that looked onto the street. I certainly could make sounds appear to image over my shoulder and even behind me, but I was curious to see if my Dalmatian dog was able to hear what I was hearing. One day, back in the studio, I assembled a tape with sounds of people playing in a park. I inserted a dog barking into the mix using a matrix so that the dog imaged over my left shoulder. I brought the tape home. One night I got my dog to sit between the speakers and relax. I played the tape. Now he was use to hearing music and all types of sounds over those speakers, so his reaction was hum-ho. As the tape played he heard the children playing in the park as recorded. But when the dog barked, he immediately turned his head and looked to the left behind him for the dog. At that time I knew he was hearing the same imaging I was hearing. He was hearing virtual surround imaging! The next night I repeated the experiment, with the same results, only this time he actually went over to the window behind the couch and looked out.

I relate this story to you with the hope that you will visit my webpage and experience some degree of virtual surround sound over two-speaker stereo.

~swd

 

[quadsearcher]

COMMENT to Himey: I don't know what you mean by "dy matrix albums." Please explain.

"dy matrix" = Dynaco matrix, the Hafler effect. As I understand it.

I agree, in general any stereo album can give a surround effect. Sometimes not much, but sometimes so pronounced, with sensible placement that it seems deliberate. To me, there are very few with very good image placement, the albums discussed in this thread and Hendrix' Electric Ladyland are some of these. Electric Ladyland has at least one circular pan. One of the great mysteries of surround is a picture of a master tape box of that album with the note "do not correct phase".
What a revelation that in your case, it was not intended to be "decoded" into four speakers. I have listened to the study videos (through stereo headphones). Sunflower is one of my favorite records, so it is hard to separate the quality of performance and the sheer amount of attention to detail, from the imaging. It is so pleasant to hear. Not that I wouldn't want to listen to a four channel mix of it, but I can't imagine it being improved. I have heard it processed through several different "quad synthesizers" and some songs jump out into the four speakers, but oddly "It's About Time" does not (as much) and it is still great.

I would sure like to spend some time with the device that resolves the virtual matrix, or wait for more Study Videos, and understand more about mic techniques that can be resolved to a nearly 360 degree perception. The mental image of Charles Lloyd playing the horn between two grand pianos to catch resonances is etched in my mind. Thank you.

I want to clarify that the Sunflower tracks have amazing immersive imaging.

 

[quadsearcher]

COMMENT:

I post here not to argue, but to clarify.

I thank everyone for guiding those fellow posters who may be a little lean in their research and understanding of these complex subjects.

Almost everything that may seem confusing or unusual can be made clearer by a visit to my website http://swdstudyvideos.com.

As to willothewisp's comments that they have never heard two speakers give a surround sound experience . . . I wish you could hear what is possible in the world of virtual surround sound. About the best I can offer is to visit my website and listen. If you don't hear surround by listening to the songs presented at my website, then you may be among the few percentage of the human population that is phase deaf and cannot experience phase related transfer functions.

You are probably too young to remember the reviews in professional publications of the Desper ProSpatializer, but those reviews by reputable engineers and producers clearly and without reserve state that this device can make sounds seem to image from anywhere in the sound field (around the room) propagated from two speakers. This device is used by every major movie and world class studio, or was used in the past, to expand the sound field.

We have only two ears.

Someday I will publish (on my website) a 250 page white paper on how this is possible. It is backed by a stack of pier reviewed research papers around 18 inches high. It is mostly about the neural behavior of the brain as it relates to sound processing, and is rather deep, but is still apropos.

When someone makes the comment that they cannot hear anything beyond the physical boundaries set by two speakers in a stereo system it reminds me of the test I did way back when developing virtual surround from two speakers. Here's the story . . .

In my small apartment living room I had two electrostatic loudspeakers spaced about eight feet apart. The listening couch was about ten feet back from the speakers, with nothing in-between. Behind the couch were some windows that looked onto the street. I certainly could make sounds appear to image over my shoulder and even behind me, but I was curious to see if my Dalmatian dog was able to hear what I was hearing. One day, back in the studio, I assembled a tape with sounds of people playing in a park. I inserted a dog barking into the mix using a matrix so that the dog imaged over my left shoulder. I brought the tape home. One night I got my dog to sit between the speakers and relax. I played the tape. Now he was use to hearing music and all types of sounds over those speakers, so his reaction was hum-ho. As the tape played he heard the children playing in the park as recorded. But when the dog barked, he immediately turned his head and looked to the left behind him for the dog. At that time I knew he was hearing the same imaging I was hearing. He was hearing virtual surround imaging! The next night I repeated the experiment, with the same results, only this time he actually went over to the window behind the couch and looked out.

I relate this story to you with the hope that you will visit my webpage and experience some degree of virtual surround sound over two-speaker stereo.

~swd

Could the windows be acting as the the back half of an acoustic decoder? maybe I'm missing out by listening to the videos on headphones, maybe a physical room will resolve as intended?
The first week that I listened to a lot of quad and got used to expecting directional positioning, I then listened to a well mixed stereo record (in two-channel)and heard sounds front and back and all around. I have a similar layout, but Scott 100A's for fronts. Instead of windows, I have a flat unadorned plaster wall behind the couch.

 

[Stephen W. Desper]

Could the windows be acting as the the back half of an acoustic decoder? maybe I'm missing out by listening to the videos on headphones, maybe a physical room will resolve as intended?
The first week that I listened to a lot of quad and got used to expecting directional positioning, I then listened to a well mixed stereo record (in two-channel)and heard sounds front and back and all around. I have a similar layout, but Scott 100A's for fronts. Instead of windows, I have a flat unadorned plaster wall behind the couch.

COMMENT to quadsearcher: The windows have nothing to do with it. There is more to the story, but the dog clearly and repeatedly was reacting to the matrix, not the windows, even with the draperies closed.

Virtual surround deals with Head Related Transfer Functions (HRTF) that are a product of loudspeaker propagation. Headphones do not yield HRTF since each ear is completely separated from the other. In order to hear virtual surround stereo you must listen over two spaced speakers and be about as far from them as they are apart.

Believe it or not, listening to virtual surround over speakers will stimulate the neuroplasticity of your brain to grow new neural pathways in Brodmann areas 41 and 42 of the primary auditory cortex. This was verified by an audiophile Doctor friend of mine while viewing P.E.T. scans and listening to the effect over speakers. In effect, you will become more sensitive to spatial data so that just listening to a normal stereo source provides an increase awareness of envelopment. Sounds to me like this was your experience. ~swd

 

[willothewisp]

COMMENT:

I post here not to argue, but to clarify.

I thank everyone for guiding those fellow posters who may be a little lean in their research and understanding of these complex subjects.

Almost everything that may seem confusing or unusual can be made clearer by a visit to my website http://swdstudyvideos.com.

As to willothewisp's comments that they have never heard two speakers give a surround sound experience . . . I wish you could hear what is possible in the world of virtual surround sound. About the best I can offer is to visit my website and listen. If you don't hear surround by listening to the songs presented at my website, then you may be among the few percentage of the human population that is phase deaf and cannot experience phase related transfer functions.

You are probably too young to remember the reviews in professional publications of the Desper ProSpatializer, but those reviews by reputable engineers and producers clearly and without reserve state that this device can make sounds seem to image from anywhere in the sound field (around the room) propagated from two speakers. This device is used by every major movie and world class studio, or was used in the past, to expand the sound field.

We have only two ears.

Someday I will publish (on my website) a 250 page white paper on how this is possible. It is backed by a stack of pier reviewed research papers around 18 inches high. It is mostly about the neural behavior of the brain as it relates to sound processing, and is rather deep, but is still apropos.

When someone makes the comment that they cannot hear anything beyond the physical boundaries set by two speakers in a stereo system it reminds me of the test I did way back when developing virtual surround from two speakers. Here's the story . . .

In my small apartment living room I had two electrostatic loudspeakers spaced about eight feet apart. The listening couch was about ten feet back from the speakers, with nothing in-between. Behind the couch were some windows that looked onto the street. I certainly could make sounds appear to image over my shoulder and even behind me, but I was curious to see if my Dalmatian dog was able to hear what I was hearing. One day, back in the studio, I assembled a tape with sounds of people playing in a park. I inserted a dog barking into the mix using a matrix so that the dog imaged over my left shoulder. I brought the tape home. One night I got my dog to sit between the speakers and relax. I played the tape. Now he was use to hearing music and all types of sounds over those speakers, so his reaction was hum-ho. As the tape played he heard the children playing in the park as recorded. But when the dog barked, he immediately turned his head and looked to the left behind him for the dog. At that time I knew he was hearing the same imaging I was hearing. He was hearing virtual surround imaging! The next night I repeated the experiment, with the same results, only this time he actually went over to the window behind the couch and looked out.

I relate this story to you with the hope that you will visit my webpage and experience some degree of virtual surround sound over two-speaker stereo.

~swd

thak you stephen for clarifying the issue. i will pop by your site and have a listen and will report back whether i am able to hear the effect or not

 

[MidiMagic]

Notes:

1: Is this the same as Sansui QS, or are we playing games with two different systems with the same "QS" trademark? If they are separate systems, then use "Sansui QS" and "Q-Sound" to differentiate them. Don't just say "QS".

2. All 2-speaker surround systems have the same failures: They go flat if you don't face the speakers.

3. Sansui QS also put a 90 degree phase shift on the back channels so center back doesn't disappear. The phase shift causes no harm. I have encoded them with and without the phase shift. The only place it is really needed is if you encode an already mixed quadraphonic master tape.

 

[MidiMagic]

I encoded my first Dynaco Diamond recording in December 1970 using information in a July 1970 issue of Audio Magazine.

DY is the Dynaco diamond. DQ is the Dynaquad rectangle.

What was placed on the album insert was probably put there by a marketing expert, not anyone technical.

I have quite a few records, cassettes, and CDs with markings that say something like:

Quadraphonic Recording. Can be played on any stereo player or with QS, EV, or Dynaquad quadraphonic players.