Music streaming on Apple Music in 5.1 (Dolby Audio)

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Maybe we can write letters and send them via messages to Apple asking them to get those Sony quad masters that Amazon or Tidal now has but are missing on Apple Music? I think if we were specific with the artists (Aerosmith, S&G, etc.) it might not hurt. Does anyone know of the help or comments portal for Apple? I'd hate for these to fall though the cracks because we sat by and just waited, and nobody knew that we were watching and waiting?

I think if we also mentioned that Apple has the real discreet playback and the others do not for these quad masters - is a good idea.
 
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Maybe we can write letters and send them via messages to Apple asking them to get those Sony quad masters that Amazon or Tidal now has but are missing on Apple Music? I think if we were specific with the artists (Aerosmith, S&G, etc.) it might not hurt. Does anyone know of the help or comments portal for Apple? I'd hate for these to fall though the cracks because we sat by and just waited, and nobody knew were watching and waiting?

I think if we also mentioned that Apple has the real discreet playback and the others do not for these quad masters - is a good idea.

N get that Styx unreleased Grand Illusion on Apple please...small miracle pray :)
 
Maybe we can write letters and send them via messages to Apple asking them to get those Sony quad masters that Amazon or Tidal now has but are missing on Apple Music? I think if we were specific with the artists (Aerosmith, S&G, etc.) it might not hurt. Does anyone know of the help or comments portal for Apple? I'd hate for these to fall though the cracks because we sat by and just waited, and nobody knew that we were watching and waiting?

I think if we also mentioned that Apple has the real discreet playback and the others do not for these quad masters - is a good idea.

It's worth remembering that Apple is just a distribution platform. The uploading of these mixes lies with Sony (or any other label).
 
maybe, i really don't know 🙂
what one could deduce is if there ever was a barrier to his Quads being reissued then maybe it isn't a factor right now?
He just sold his entire publishing catalog and maybe he is letting the masters be used "for whatever", in the effort for them to recoup on their investment. I think he still has the masters under control.
 
It'd be nice if they could find the quad mix of Native Sons, which only came out on SQ matrix-encoded LP in the '70s with no discrete quad 8-track counterpart. The surround effect on the song "Sweet Marie" is pretty entertaining even in decoded form.
"Pretty Princess" is one of my favorites. I'd love to hear it in quad.
 
I find these quad mixes a little weird, I guess from expectations that I have from modern 5.1 stuff. Good Friend has drums heavy in the left rear, with bass really heavy in the right rear, while the front is vocally dominant. It’s not bad, it’s really interesting, but it is different!
 
I find these quad mixes a little weird, I guess from expectations that I have from modern 5.1 stuff. Good Friend has drums heavy in the left rear, with bass really heavy in the right rear, while the front is vocally dominant. It’s not bad, it’s really interesting, but it is different!

Some of the early CBS ones are indeed a bit funky with their extreme 4-corner separation, but later titles like Johnny Winter’s Saints & Sinners or The Isley Brothers’ Go For Your Guns are constructed similarly to modern 5.1 mixes with the drums & bass upfront and secondary elements like rhythm guitars, handclaps, backing vocals, etc in the rears.
 
What I wouldn’t give to hear a surround version of Mother Lode.
I've often wondered why CBS didn't issue a quad version of it in the '70s, as the album was engineered by Alex Kazanegras who received quad remix credits on both Full Sail and Native Sons. Perhaps it had to do with the album being recorded at Jim Messina's home studio instead of a CBS facility?
 
I find these quad mixes a little weird, I guess from expectations that I have from modern 5.1 stuff. Good Friend has drums heavy in the left rear, with bass really heavy in the right rear, while the front is vocally dominant. It’s not bad, it’s really interesting, but it is different!

I don't know what this sounds like via Apple Music as I listen to it via the AF SACD, but if the mix is balanced properly, I think you'll find the drum kit is actually in stereo, diagonally spread from the front left to the rear right - the idea was that by doing this, you'd get a kind of "phantom middle of the room" sound if you were sitting right in the middle of the 4 speakers. This was due to the way SQ encoding worked, you weren't allowed to put anything in the phantom rear center worked, because it would cancel out in mono due to the phase shifts that the encoder used, and it also presented problems for LP cutting because it would create something called pure vertical modulation which would cause the LP cutting head to literally jump out of the groove. Tech talk aside, the engineers who mixed for SQ knew they couldn't do certain things, so they looked for creative ways to get around these limitations, and this was one of them - there are quite a few CBS SQ mixes that have the drums panned diagonally like this, including some of the tracks on 360 Degrees of Billy Paul and some of Garfunkel's Breakaway just to name a couple, and the O'Jays Ship Ahoy has the bass guitar diagonally split like that one track, and a baritone voice split like that on another, in an attempt to put those elements in the middle of the room. I think on this album Larry Keyes also mixed the horns in diagonal stereo using the opposite pair (ie front right and rear left) to achieve the same phantom-center of the room placement. I also think they did this with an ear toward stereo compatibility: lets say you put the drums in stereo across the front left and rear left speaker, if you listened to that quad LP in stereo, then you'd have double volume drums crowded on the left of the stereo sound field. But if you put them in the front left and rear right (or vice versa) when the mix folds down to stereo you still have a nice left-right spread across the stereo spectrum.

I'm not convinced the diagonally panned stereo thing is entirely effective, but it was the only option these engineers had for trying to put something at "quad center" within the limitations of the format they were working with. If they didn't have these limitations I think you would've heard a lot more CBS mixes that sounded like RCA and WEA quad mixes, which oftentimes feature the lead vocal or bass guitar in all 4 speakers (Bread, Guess Who, Jimmy Castor, and many others) drums in double stereo, like on Graham Central's Ain't No Bout A Doubt It or the Frank Zappa quad mixes. So for me, I actually think the limitations of SQ had a positive unintended consequence in that they made the CBS quad mixes considerably more discrete as a result - once you get used to their quirks, I think they're a really satisfying listening experience, especially compared to a lot of modern surround where 75 or 80 percent of the music is up front, like it's serving as a soundtrack for film or televisual content that isn't even there.
 
I just listened to Angry Eyes on the s/t release - and the rears are reversed from the Audio Fidelity SACD. On the SACD, the bass in the left rear - with the drums predominantly in the right rear (and left front). On Apple Music, the bass is the right rear - with the drums entirely on the left side.

I just did a cursory listen to a couple of other tracks and it seems like it might be the case for the whole album. The “Hold the car, long hair” is in the right rear of the SACD and the left on Apple Music.

Which is correct? My guess is the Apple Music version because the drums blend more seamlessly IMO on Angry Eyes with them all on the left side.

EDIT: I see now where steelydave talks about a “phantom middle of the room“ on Good Friend with the AF SACD. I could be wrong, but I don’t think it is an intentional phantom middle of the room, but rather it’s a channel mix error on the SACD. Or as I wrote above, maybe I just don’t like the phantom middle. It smears everything compared to the Apple Music channel assignments - particularly when, for instance, the drums weren’t dry on Angry Eyes.

Listening to Whiskey now, it’s the same thing with the acoustic guitar. I can’t imagine they wanted that “phantom middle” with it. It just sounds more seamless to me with it all on the right side.
 
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I just listened to Angry Eyes on the s/t release - and the rears are reversed from the Audio Fidelity SACD. On the SACD, the bass in the left rear - with the drums predominantly in the right rear (and left front). On Apple Music, the bass is the right rear - with the drums entirely on the left side

The SQ LP and Q8 tape match the AF SACD (bass in left rear, drums predominantly in right rear), so I’m inclined to think that’s the intended layout.

Some of the other CBS quads on Apple Music have channel errors, such as the front and rear pairs being reversed on “Easy Street” from Edgar Winter’s Shock Treatment.
 
The SQ LP and Q8 tape match the AF SACD (bass in left rear, drums predominantly in right rear), so I’m inclined to think that’s the intended layout.

Some of the other CBS quads on Apple Music have channel errors, such as the front and rear pairs being reversed on “Easy Street” from Edgar Winter’s Shock Treatment.
Fair enough.

Now that I think about it, I have noticed the diagonal mixing before. Maybe they were trying to kill several birds with one stone, but the diagonal instrument placements of key instruments sure makes the whole mix more smeared (kinda out of phase-y) to me.

I wonder if maybe somebody at Sony is listening to these mixes and thinking the same thing as me, i.e. this can’t correct?
 
Fair enough.

Now that I think about it, I have noticed the diagonal mixing before. Maybe they were trying to kill several birds with one stone, but the diagonal instrument placements of key instruments sure makes the whole mix more smeared (kinda out of phase-y) to me.

I wonder if maybe somebody at Sony is listening to these mixes and thinking the same thing as me, i.e. this can’t correct?

I think that's probably exactly what happened, because that's what I used to think too - in fact I authored a pretty long post in the O'Jays Ship Ahoy poll thread where I laid out the reasons I thought the diagonally panned instruments were wrong, but it turns out I was the one who was wrong.

Some years after that I spoke to Arthur Stoppe, who assisted Don Young on this quad mix (and who mixed many of the other PIR quads) and laid out the same case, and he explained that no, the diagonal spreads were intentional and for SQ compatibility as I laid out in my previous post.

He also said that they never mixed anything in stereo along the side walls (ie left front and left rear, or right front and right rear) because you couldn't hear anything in stereo unless you turned 90 degrees in your seat to face one of those walls, ie turn 90 degrees counter-clockwise and your left ear is pointed at the left rear speaker and your right ear is pointed at the left front speaker, and I think that belief was almost universal amongst all mixers as you'd be hard pressed to find a quad mix that has a stereo element along one of the side walls.

SQ was an imperfect system (to say the very least) and the diagonal "phantom quad center" placements were an imperfect solution to one of its problems, but at least for me, once you understand the thinking, they make more sense in the listening. If these diagonal pans were confined to one engineer, or one studio, you might be able to conclude it was an accident or a mistake, but almost every engineer who did any number of quad mixes used this diagonal method at one point or another. Garfunkel's Breakaway (and if I'm remembering correctly, Paul Simon's Still Crazy After All These Years) makes use of pans on both diagonal axes simultaneously in the majority of songs on the album, and it was done by legendary mixer Bill Schnee so it wasn't just CBS's in-house guys doing this stuff.

I'm sure these Apple engineers just get shipped a bunch of .wav files (or similar) and are left to their own devices to make sense of how the channels should be assigned. I dunno if this is still the case, but when the quad mixes started showing up on Tidal, half of them had the channel assignments so grossly mis-assigned that if you listened to them in stereo, the front speakers were in your left ear and the rear speakers were in your right ear. Apple Music seems to be better, but I'd always trust AF & D-V, who both had/have access to master tape boxes and other associated paperwork.
 
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