Soundfield
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
No.
New Surround Master coming! Its a jump to the left and a step to the right
- Thread starter chucky3042
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Just waiting patiently for the preorder page to go up. 
Now my "public consumption" system in the family room will get to experience SM magic, with the old one moving down there & the new one going to my bedroom sanitarium.
Now my "public consumption" system in the family room will get to experience SM magic, with the old one moving down there & the new one going to my bedroom sanitarium.
How is the SM V2 project going? Eager to spend a few $$ & replace both my QSD-1000 and Tate with the new toy!
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Hi Sonik Wiz
I have deliberately been delaying my response to you as we were completing the positional arrangement of the components on the main circuit board. We have also started on the front control knob board. Currently we are "tracking" the main board and playing with the mechanics. Below is a screen 3D shot of the main PCB for your general amusement
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I have deliberately been delaying my response to you as we were completing the positional arrangement of the components on the main circuit board. We have also started on the front control knob board. Currently we are "tracking" the main board and playing with the mechanics. Below is a screen 3D shot of the main PCB for your general amusement
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And here is a plan view
I wish to be included on the member discount list for buying the new SM unit when it becomes available.
Here's a quick (probably somewhat unrelated) question.
If I send strict analog two channel stereo music sourced from old school analog tape processed through your IM-ED1 encode/decode unit, but then recorded back into a 1/2" two channel stereo tape recorder machine (encoded), how will each of these two tapes (orig two trk vs newly encoded two trk) perform differently from each other if they were to be played back through a pair of XLR stereo inputs on let's say an OPPO UDP-205, or perhaps a standard vintage quad unit like my old Sansui QSD-1, or even your new version SM unit???
Or does that encode/decode unit only create usable encoded multichannel program when sent to digital media like burning a CD disc?
The reason I ask is because the Involve web site says that the encoded stereo result from the IM-ED1 will be indistinguishable from the original stereo program when played through conventional two channel playback equipment.
Here's a quick (probably somewhat unrelated) question.
If I send strict analog two channel stereo music sourced from old school analog tape processed through your IM-ED1 encode/decode unit, but then recorded back into a 1/2" two channel stereo tape recorder machine (encoded), how will each of these two tapes (orig two trk vs newly encoded two trk) perform differently from each other if they were to be played back through a pair of XLR stereo inputs on let's say an OPPO UDP-205, or perhaps a standard vintage quad unit like my old Sansui QSD-1, or even your new version SM unit???
Or does that encode/decode unit only create usable encoded multichannel program when sent to digital media like burning a CD disc?
The reason I ask is because the Involve web site says that the encoded stereo result from the IM-ED1 will be indistinguishable from the original stereo program when played through conventional two channel playback equipment.
Soundfield
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
I can't really fathom what you are trying to achieve but there is no point in sending a single stereo signal to a quad/surround encoder, it won't do much! Such a device is designed to take two stereo pairs (i.e Front and Rear + centre if used) and encode them down to a single pair for distribution prior to subsequent decoding. An encoder cannot create quad/surround information from a stereo source.
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That's why I asked.
I do understand that the $3k IM-ED1unit can process/encode four channels of discrete input into quad-encoded two channel output, which I assumed could then be recorded (saved) onto a conventional stereo CD-R disc, (separate burner of course) later to be played back though an SM (or similar) decoder unit, thus returning the original quad to the listener as a reasonable or even very faithful 4-ch program.
However, the reason for my first question was that I had imagined, apparently falsely, that the Involve IM-ED1 unit could also synthesize a quad version of any analog stereo input, which would then carry the (now hidden) 4-ch music (stored) inside a two channel program, and later to be sent along to a decoder, extracted back out into (processor-synthesized) quad.
The main point of my question was whether or not this quad-encoded, 2-ch program could be stored equally faithfully on magnetic tape as well as on a CD-R.
So you are saying that what it actually does (and is limited to doing) is take ONLY discrete quad material in (as 4 separate channels) and fold them down into a two channel delivery program that can be played and enjoyed as if it were simply a native unadulterated stereo form of music, but also be successfully decoded into its original discrete quad state. Yes?
Same question remains, will quad-encoded two channel program, recorded onto open reel tape play back as faithfully as if it were burned to a CD-R?
I do understand that the $3k IM-ED1unit can process/encode four channels of discrete input into quad-encoded two channel output, which I assumed could then be recorded (saved) onto a conventional stereo CD-R disc, (separate burner of course) later to be played back though an SM (or similar) decoder unit, thus returning the original quad to the listener as a reasonable or even very faithful 4-ch program.
However, the reason for my first question was that I had imagined, apparently falsely, that the Involve IM-ED1 unit could also synthesize a quad version of any analog stereo input, which would then carry the (now hidden) 4-ch music (stored) inside a two channel program, and later to be sent along to a decoder, extracted back out into (processor-synthesized) quad.
The main point of my question was whether or not this quad-encoded, 2-ch program could be stored equally faithfully on magnetic tape as well as on a CD-R.
So you are saying that what it actually does (and is limited to doing) is take ONLY discrete quad material in (as 4 separate channels) and fold them down into a two channel delivery program that can be played and enjoyed as if it were simply a native unadulterated stereo form of music, but also be successfully decoded into its original discrete quad state. Yes?
Same question remains, will quad-encoded two channel program, recorded onto open reel tape play back as faithfully as if it were burned to a CD-R?
Soundfield
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
M-D-Z, If I understand correctly you want to achieve this process:
2 ch Stereo source > (Quad Synthesiser) > 4ch Simulated Quad > (Quad Encoder) > 2ch encoded Simulated Quad > [TAPE] > (Quad decoder) > 4ch Simulated Quad
Which seems needlessly complicated, what is the point of encoding and decoding here?
Why would you not simply go for:
2 ch Stereo source > [TAPE] > (Quad Synthesiser) > 4ch Simulated Quad ?
The SM’s Involve /QS mode would perform that function for you.
2 ch Stereo source > (Quad Synthesiser) > 4ch Simulated Quad > (Quad Encoder) > 2ch encoded Simulated Quad > [TAPE] > (Quad decoder) > 4ch Simulated Quad
Which seems needlessly complicated, what is the point of encoding and decoding here?
Why would you not simply go for:
2 ch Stereo source > [TAPE] > (Quad Synthesiser) > 4ch Simulated Quad ?
The SM’s Involve /QS mode would perform that function for you.
Thank you for trying to help me decide whether this IM-ED1 encode/decode box is useful to me.
Looking at the back of this rather expensive rack mount encode/decode unit, it has several options for what can be input and output.
I am trying to get some understanding regarding the purpose, range and performance limitations of the unit.
With all the two channel inputs, it makes me wonder, exactly what can this box do, and not do?
I am a tapehead running quite a few discrete four channel machines, Otari MX5050 BQII, Ampex ATR 1/2" four track four channel, TEAC A3440, Tascam 234, etc.
I do not enjoy low quality quad material with poor, arbitrary or nonsensical separation, and/or muddy channel delivery. The 4 channels must be serving a musically compelling or qualitatively involving purpose, or it might as well remain in regular stereo.
So if one would need an SM decoder to play back encoded program, what's the purpose of creating quad encoded stereo if the SM can synthesize the same result anyway?
That was my original question, what would the difference be between the two?
The other question, would the quad encoded stereo output coming out of the encoder be able to deliver the exact same quad results regardless of the delivery medium, in my case magnetic tape vs a CD-R?
Btw, I also have a Tascam CD-RW901mkII burner.
The unit is basically USD$3,000., and if one needs an SM to decode the quad result it creates back into discrete four channel playback, why not save the 3Gs and let the SM synthesize the quad in the first place?
Looking at the back of this rather expensive rack mount encode/decode unit, it has several options for what can be input and output.
I am trying to get some understanding regarding the purpose, range and performance limitations of the unit.
With all the two channel inputs, it makes me wonder, exactly what can this box do, and not do?
I am a tapehead running quite a few discrete four channel machines, Otari MX5050 BQII, Ampex ATR 1/2" four track four channel, TEAC A3440, Tascam 234, etc.
I do not enjoy low quality quad material with poor, arbitrary or nonsensical separation, and/or muddy channel delivery. The 4 channels must be serving a musically compelling or qualitatively involving purpose, or it might as well remain in regular stereo.
So if one would need an SM decoder to play back encoded program, what's the purpose of creating quad encoded stereo if the SM can synthesize the same result anyway?
That was my original question, what would the difference be between the two?
The other question, would the quad encoded stereo output coming out of the encoder be able to deliver the exact same quad results regardless of the delivery medium, in my case magnetic tape vs a CD-R?
Btw, I also have a Tascam CD-RW901mkII burner.
The unit is basically USD$3,000., and if one needs an SM to decode the quad result it creates back into discrete four channel playback, why not save the 3Gs and let the SM synthesize the quad in the first place?
Soundfield
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
You've lost me I'm afraid, probably my fault, but I cannot untangle your thoughts on this. Sorry.
To put my line of questions in perspective (in the context of this thread) I already have one mint Sansui QSD-1, 2x Proton SD-1000, 2x Aphex ESP-7000, 2x Shure HTS 5300 Acra-Vector, 2x Fosgate Audionics 360 DSM 3610 Pro-Plus processors, all with working remotes, but unfortunately no Tate units, I never could afford one of those... even used.
I have been preparing myself to purchase an SM for a very long time, and now with the new version coming soon, I am finally ready to pull the trigger, but which one?, this is why I am asking about the studio intended encode/decode unit.
If it accomplishes the same results as the new Surround Master (and much more) for my recording studio, then I may be able justify the cost.
I sent emails with these questions about this unit to Involve last year but never received actionable information.
I have been preparing myself to purchase an SM for a very long time, and now with the new version coming soon, I am finally ready to pull the trigger, but which one?, this is why I am asking about the studio intended encode/decode unit.
If it accomplishes the same results as the new Surround Master (and much more) for my recording studio, then I may be able justify the cost.
I sent emails with these questions about this unit to Involve last year but never received actionable information.
Thank you for trying. No fault to be assigned I'm sure!
I wonder if anyone on QQ actually owns or uses the studio unit, as I must believe an owner/user who also remembers life in the analog domain would understand my questions.
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Hi M-D-Z
Sorry we did not reply to your email last year, must have been a busy week and Dave the Bitch can get distracted. The studio encoder has been redesigned to be cheaper at around $2k and its intention is simply to encode 4 or 5 channels into Involve stereo. You might argue - whats the point when the SM decodes from normal stereo anyway. The answer is if it is deliberately encoded into Involve stereo and then decoded back into surround with the SM - the end result will be extremely faithful with around 35 - 40 db separation. If you decode from stereo you might get something less and a bit random depending on what the recording "engineers" did.
May I suggest a cheaper option to play with is buy our evaluation encode module at around $150 . Its technically just as good as our studio encoder without the box and adjustments etc, but still does the same job- and it is actually in stock! See the attached pdf's
Regards
Chucky
Exactly the answers I was looking for!
I can mount these two devices inside any 1U metal box? The optional power supply would also fit if selected?
So the first answer tells me that I would need to feed it four channels of input, not just two, presumably because the encode module does not create quad from stereo in the same way the standard consumer SM does, yes?
Second, the decode module will fairly faithfully recreate the incoming discrete four channels using Involve processing derived from the module encoded stereo.
Third, the quad-encoded stereo output of the encode module can be sent to my Ampex ATR two track/two channel magnetic tape mastering recorder to make an analog tape that can be used as a master source for creating duplicate 1/4" 2 or 4 track/stereo tapes, CD-Rs, cassettes, vinyl LPs, anything that can be subsequently processed back through the Involve SM or the studio module and the results will be the same whether or not that media exist in the digital or analog domain, have I got it right yet?
Note:
In the fully featured IM-ED1, I see there are XLR & RCAs, are they balanced (+4) and unbalanced (-10) line levels? Most of my chain is XLR (bal), but I have plenty of Henry Eng Matchboxe HDs and Aphex 124A interfaces to adapt balanced XLRs to RCA consumer devices. I take efforts to maintain proper gain structure keeping the noise floor as low as possible.
Thank you!
I can mount these two devices inside any 1U metal box? The optional power supply would also fit if selected?
So the first answer tells me that I would need to feed it four channels of input, not just two, presumably because the encode module does not create quad from stereo in the same way the standard consumer SM does, yes?
Second, the decode module will fairly faithfully recreate the incoming discrete four channels using Involve processing derived from the module encoded stereo.
Third, the quad-encoded stereo output of the encode module can be sent to my Ampex ATR two track/two channel magnetic tape mastering recorder to make an analog tape that can be used as a master source for creating duplicate 1/4" 2 or 4 track/stereo tapes, CD-Rs, cassettes, vinyl LPs, anything that can be subsequently processed back through the Involve SM or the studio module and the results will be the same whether or not that media exist in the digital or analog domain, have I got it right yet?
Note:
In the fully featured IM-ED1, I see there are XLR & RCAs, are they balanced (+4) and unbalanced (-10) line levels? Most of my chain is XLR (bal), but I have plenty of Henry Eng Matchboxe HDs and Aphex 124A interfaces to adapt balanced XLRs to RCA consumer devices. I take efforts to maintain proper gain structure keeping the noise floor as low as possible.
Thank you!
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Hi M-D-Z
In answer to you questions I offer the following:
I can mount these two devices inside any 1U metal box? The optional power supply would also fit if selected?
YES BUT BETTER OUTSIDE AS IT KEEPS THE NOISE DOWN AND THEY MIGHT BE A LITTLE FAT FOR THE 1U ENCLOSURE
So the first answer tells me that I would need to feed it four channels of input, not just two, presumably because the encode module does not create quad from stereo in the same way the standard consumer SM does, yes?
YES
Second, the decode module will fairly faithfully recreate the incoming discrete four channels using Involve processing derived from the module encoded stereo.
YES AND AROUND 35 - 40 DB SEPARATION
Third, the quad-encoded stereo output of the encode module can be sent to my Ampex ATR two track/two channel magnetic tape mastering recorder to make an analog tape that can be used as a master source for creating duplicate 1/4" 2 or 4 track/stereo tapes, CD-Rs, cassettes, vinyl LPs, anything that can be subsequently processed back through the Involve SM or the studio module and the results will be the same whether or not that media exist in the digital or analog domain, have I got it right yet?
ALL GOOD AND AS A BONUS THE INVOLVE ENCODED STEREO STREAM WILL SOUND EXACTLY LIKE STEREO- NOT IMAGE COMPRESSED LIKE QS
Regards
Chucky
In answer to you questions I offer the following:
I can mount these two devices inside any 1U metal box? The optional power supply would also fit if selected?
YES BUT BETTER OUTSIDE AS IT KEEPS THE NOISE DOWN AND THEY MIGHT BE A LITTLE FAT FOR THE 1U ENCLOSURE
So the first answer tells me that I would need to feed it four channels of input, not just two, presumably because the encode module does not create quad from stereo in the same way the standard consumer SM does, yes?
YES
Second, the decode module will fairly faithfully recreate the incoming discrete four channels using Involve processing derived from the module encoded stereo.
YES AND AROUND 35 - 40 DB SEPARATION
Third, the quad-encoded stereo output of the encode module can be sent to my Ampex ATR two track/two channel magnetic tape mastering recorder to make an analog tape that can be used as a master source for creating duplicate 1/4" 2 or 4 track/stereo tapes, CD-Rs, cassettes, vinyl LPs, anything that can be subsequently processed back through the Involve SM or the studio module and the results will be the same whether or not that media exist in the digital or analog domain, have I got it right yet?
ALL GOOD AND AS A BONUS THE INVOLVE ENCODED STEREO STREAM WILL SOUND EXACTLY LIKE STEREO- NOT IMAGE COMPRESSED LIKE QS
Regards
Chucky
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Dear All
The new SM is coming along and design on the front PCB will start next week as the main board is nearly done. Here are some 3D images of what the inside will be.
The new SM is coming along and design on the front PCB will start next week as the main board is nearly done. Here are some 3D images of what the inside will be.
Soundfield
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Good news Chucky, thanks - we're getting ever nearer!
Very interesting housing!, like the main board floats while trapped laterally within channel slots which are extruded lengthwise into the aluminum side rails, instead of raised up upon and screwed down to four threaded stand-off posts.
I also like how sturdy & rigid plate aluminum front and rear panels can both be screwed directly into the extruded semi-circular open side plate cavities with self-tapping countersunk flathead SHCSs, an extremely robust design indeed!
Some other modern BPC housings have rear Input/output sockets that are fragile against push-on RCA wire plugs that have absurdly tight outer ground ring clamping fingers, this design looks like that eventuality has been considered and accounted for.
It also appears strictly sized and shaped as a table top unit.
Was there ever any thought of attaching rack mounting ears?
I have been keeping an eye on this project and will be watching for the pre-order list to be started.
!
I also like how sturdy & rigid plate aluminum front and rear panels can both be screwed directly into the extruded semi-circular open side plate cavities with self-tapping countersunk flathead SHCSs, an extremely robust design indeed!
Some other modern BPC housings have rear Input/output sockets that are fragile against push-on RCA wire plugs that have absurdly tight outer ground ring clamping fingers, this design looks like that eventuality has been considered and accounted for.
It also appears strictly sized and shaped as a table top unit.
Was there ever any thought of attaching rack mounting ears?
I have been keeping an eye on this project and will be watching for the pre-order list to be started.
!
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