New Surround Master v2 - Pre-Order Roster Discussion Thread

[Sonik Wiz]

Need to know what the first thing everyone’s gonna be running through the new SM, but on the other thread?
Maybe here:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...und-master-v2-thoughts-and-impressions.26644/
or here:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ounds-amazing-with-the-surround-master.20908/

I vote for the former thread. As in V2 thoughts and impressions.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Let The Good Times Roll

 

[karlkastner]

Let The Good Times Roll

View attachment 40959

How does "Moving In Stereo" sound?

 

[chucky3042]

Let The Good Times Roll

View attachment 40959

Feel free to take that sticker off and put it on the underside. Just caught that stuffup the other day.......not happy!

Chucky

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Feel free to take that sticker off and put it on the underside. Just caught that stuffup the other day.......not happy!

Chucky

Firstly I’d like to thank Chucky et al, for shipping this via UPS 3 day international. It has been mentioned that some shipping charges have reached $100 and the customer is only charged a blanket $20. There are longer and cheaper ways to ship but it’s my experience that the longer an item sits on a loading dock or in a truck the more likely it is to go astray.
Someone at Team Involve must be taking a cue from Apple: the item’s box has a sumptuous look and feel to it. The two halves fit as tight as the piston/cylinder sleeve in my car. Inside there is not a bit of plastic packing material. Good on ya Involve.
The instruction manual is most kindly considered minimal. Only one folded page, not even tech specs are printed on it. Also there are errors: if you look at the output for various decode modes it does not show an outputted center front for the 5.1 configuration.
The metal top was loose & rattled a bit when I picked it up and I noticed that none of the output level knobs were at 12:00 straight up when set at center detent. Someone in assembly just didn’t take the time to align up properly. I didn’t bother to reset as I figured they wouldn’t be set at center anyway after adjusting balance.

Hook up was as simple as can be. Powering up my first thought was Man those is some damn bright LED’s. Much brighter than anything else in my gear. I have front projection and it actually adds a blue cast on the left side of the screen. Mr Chucky, is there an internal DIP switch that can be changed to control brightness? The mode switch & pots all have a smooth & good feel to them.
My set up is Oppo 105 analog out to the SM v2> Zektor switch box> Anthem AMV 30 5.1 analog inputs. The Anthem is already level balanced using the internal white noise generator. To balance the SM v2 I used a test disc I made using RM/QS encoded white noise at 8 standard points around the sound field. I started with center front just to check the input level. My test levels are normalized at -1dB from max level. The clipping indicator flickered just a bit when I nudged the input level just off the center detent clockwise which tells me the SM v2 input sensitivity is well matched.

I started with a left front signal at 90 db as reference starting point. I then tweaked the other outputs to match. The controls allow you to level match to within a bee's dick. I was very surprised see that the center front had to be attenuated almost the max -12 dB to match. It really wants to play loud. As I said all levels in the Anthem are already balanced & the center front doesn’t play like this in any other of a dozen different situations so I think it’s the SM. One thing I liked is the SPL matching between individual or paired locations. By that I mean if you have a 90 dB left back signal & go to center back using two speakers it stays rock solid at 90 dB. Playing any corner speaker signal & putting my ear against any other speaker I hear….. nothing. No bleed through at all.

The tone or frequency balance is the most neutral I’ve ever heard on a decoder. All Sansui units seemed a bit bass heavy or dark if you will. Good I guess if you have smallish speakers. My Tate 101A always sounded a bit bright or borderline edgy. Good I guess if you have a highly absorptive listening room. But the SM v2 is just plain ‘ol neutral. Switching from stereo to surround all bass/treble & everything in between sounds exactly the same to me.

For actual listening on the first evening I had planned on classic Thomas Dolby and Eurythmics to start as I had so much enjoyed listening to those so many times on my Sansui QS gear. I know them well. But instead I took a completely different direction. I started with the Prince BD Sign "O" the Times and the new Chisato Moritaka Blu-ray Day1 Day2 Live 2018.

Both are so very different in content and quality, both are just so overwhelmingly enjoyable to me.

Creating a live performance sound field seems to me both the easiest to do and at the same the hardest to do when using 2 ch stereo. Easy because even the simplest of decoders will produce an ambient rear background. This produces a stereo front image and an ambient rear image and the hard part is getting a homogeneous sound field that works together as a whole. The Prince disc is unique because it is the only one I have that has only Dobly True HD 5.1 as a choice. It never sounded right to me in 5.1 or DPL II. So of course the 5.1 is down mixed to 2 ch stereo in my oppo, then upmixed in the SM. The Moritaka disc is only stereo LPCM 24/48. Having listened to these may times I can only say I was amazed at what the SM v2 did for it. On both the sound field was cohesive with up front sounds being where they should and a rear sound field that blended nicely at the sides. In regards to the Prince disc / SM v2 combo I can now say that I have found a matrix decoder that I prefer to discrete. And probably the Prince performance was upmixed anyway but it doesn’t sound as good as this. The Moritaka disc is as clean & crisp as a live performance can be. The way it’s mic’ed & mixed it’s giving the decoder exactly what it needs. I am one happy customer!

Short notes: even after balancing the center front way over powers the other speakers when actually playing music. Why is this? Going to 4.0 restores the balance to normal. Maybe it will work better on dialog driven movie stuff. I have tons of stereo anime to give that a try out.

TSS works great in a way and in another it’s terrible. It definitely widens the sound field to about center left/right only using 2 speakers. All instruments panned in between seem to float at precise points in between. I guess I’d say this is how 2 ch stereo should sound! The down side is there’s an enormous bass boost that makes it unlistenable for me. Maybe it sounds good if you’re playing your fuzzy warbles on some tinny little picnic thing. But on large floor standers it’s too much. I didn’t try fiddling with the LFE as I went back pretty fast to Involve 4.0.

I haven’t had a chance to listen too much else and no QS or SQ yet. There’s an Edgar Winter disc begging to be played! And of course the Quadrafile disc will be fun. And thanks to J. PUPSTER I also have Rock Candy Funk Party that will be a must listen to this evening!

Edit and PS:
It has been mentioned before how the previous SM v1 ran hot. So does this one! It cools down when power is off so that tells me it is actually turning off, not just on stand by. But isn't just warm when on, it's hot for any line level pice of gear. Chucky is it designed/calibrated or other need to run hot? Maybe I'll take the top off. Maybe I'll chassis punch some vent holes. Yes I know that would void the warranty. But if there's one thing I'm good at it's voiding warranties.

 

[chucky3042]

Firstly I’d like to thank Chucky et al, for shipping this via UPS 3 day international. It has been mentioned that some shipping charges have reached $100 and the customer is only charged a blanket $20. There are longer and cheaper ways to ship but it’s my experience that the longer an item sits on a loading dock or in a truck the more likely it is to go astray.
Someone at Team Involve must be taking a cue from Apple: the item’s box has a sumptuous look and feel to it. The two halves fit as tight as the piston/cylinder sleeve in my car. Inside there is not a bit of plastic packing material. Good on ya Involve.
The instruction manual is most kindly considered minimal. Only one folded page, not even tech specs are printed on it. Also there are errors: if you look at the output for various decode modes it does not show an outputted center front for the 5.1 configuration.
The metal top was loose & rattled a bit when I picked it up and I noticed that none of the output level knobs were at 12:00 straight up when set at center detent. Someone in assembly just didn’t take the time to align up properly. I didn’t bother to reset as I figured they wouldn’t be set at center anyway after adjusting balance.

Hook up was as simple as can be. Powering up my first thought was Man those is some damn bright LED’s. Much brighter than anything else in my gear. I have front projection and it actually adds a blue cast on the left side of the screen. Mr Chucky, is there an internal DIP switch that can be changed to control brightness? The mode switch & pots all have a smooth & good feel to them.
My set up is Oppo 105 analog out to the SM v2> Zektor switch box> Anthem AMV 30 5.1 analog inputs. The Anthem is already level balanced using the internal white noise generator. To balance the SM v2 I used a test disc I made using RM/QS encoded white noise at 8 standard points around the sound field. I started with center front just to check the input level. My test levels are normalized at -1dB from max level. The clipping indicator flickered just a bit when I nudged the input level just off the center detent clockwise which tells me the SM v2 input sensitivity is well matched.

I started with a left front signal at 90 db as reference starting point. I then tweaked the other outputs to match. The controls allow you to level match to within a bee's dick. I was very surprised see that the center front had to be attenuated almost the max -12 dB to match. It really wants to play loud. As I said all levels in the Anthem are already balanced & the center front doesn’t play like this in any other of a dozen different situations so I think it’s the SM. One thing I liked is the SPL matching between individual or paired locations. By that I mean if you have a 90 dB left back signal & go to center back using two speakers it stays rock solid at 90 dB. Playing any corner speaker signal & putting my ear against any other speaker I hear….. nothing. No bleed through at all.

The tone or frequency balance is the most neutral I’ve ever heard on a decoder. All Sansui units seemed a bit bass heavy or dark if you will. Good I guess if you have smallish speakers. My Tate 101A always sounded a bit bright or borderline edgy. Good I guess if you have a highly absorptive listening room. But the SM v2 is just plain ‘ol neutral. Switching from stereo to surround all bass/treble & everything in between sounds exactly the same to me.

For actual listening on the first evening I had planned on classic Thomas Dolby and Eurythmics to start as I had so much enjoyed listening to those so many times on my Sansui QS gear. I know them well. But instead I took a completely different direction. I started with the Prince BD Sign "O" the Times and the new Chisato Moritaka Blu-ray Day1 Day2 Live 2018.

Both are so very different in content and quality, both are just so overwhelmingly enjoyable to me.

Creating a live performance sound field seems to me both the easiest to do and at the same the hardest to do when using 2 ch stereo. Easy because even the simplest of decoders will produce an ambient rear background. This produces a stereo front image and an ambient rear image and the hard part is getting a homogeneous sound field that works together as a whole. The Prince disc is unique because it is the only one I have that has only Dobly True HD 5.1 as a choice. It never sounded right to me in 5.1 or DPL II. So of course the 5.1 is down mixed to 2 ch stereo in my oppo, then upmixed in the SM. The Moritaka disc is only stereo LPCM 24/48. Having listened to these may times I can only say I was amazed at what the SM v2 did for it. On both the sound field was cohesive with up front sounds being where they should and a rear sound field that blended nicely at the sides. In regards to the Prince disc / SM v2 combo I can now say that I have found a matrix decoder that I prefer to discrete. And probably the Prince performance was upmixed anyway but it doesn’t sound as good as this. The Moritaka disc is as clean & crisp as a live performance can be. The way it’s mic’ed & mixed it’s giving the decoder exactly what it needs. I am one happy customer!

Short notes: even after balancing the center front way over powers the other speakers when actually playing music. Why is this? Going to 4.0 restores the balance to normal. Maybe it will work better on dialog driven movie stuff. I have tons of stereo anime to give that a try out.

TSS works great in a way and in another it’s terrible. It definitely widens the sound field to about center left/right only using 2 speakers. All instruments panned in between seem to float at precise points in between. I guess I’d say this is how 2 ch stereo should sound! The down side is there’s an enormous bass boost that makes it unlistenable for me. Maybe it sounds good if you’re playing your fuzzy warbles on some tinny little picnic thing. But on large floor standers it’s too much. I didn’t try fiddling with the LFE as I went back pretty fast to Involve 4.0.

I haven’t had a chance to listen too much else and no QS or SQ yet. There’s an Edgar Winter disc begging to be played! And of course the Quadrafile disc will be fun. And thanks to J. PUPSTER I also have Rock Candy Funk Party that will be a must listen to this evening!

Edit and PS:
It has been mentioned before how the previous SM v1 ran hot. So does this one! It cools down when power is off so that tells me it is actually turning off, not just on stand by. But isn't just warm when on, it's hot for any line level pice of gear. Chucky is it designed/calibrated or other need to run hot? Maybe I'll take the top off. Maybe I'll chassis punch some vent holes. Yes I know that would void the warranty. But if there's one thing I'm good at it's voiding warranties.

Hi Sonik

Thanks for the detailed review. Yay to all the good stuff, now for the bad stuff.......in order.

Also there are errors: if you look at the output for various decode modes it does not show an outputted center front for the 5.1 configuration.
DOH!!!! Will pass that on to Chris


The metal top was loose & rattled a bit when I picked it up
That's not right, someone has been slack at our end me thinks, please investigate and report back to us whats causing it (feel free to fix if you can). Whoops

I noticed that none of the output level knobs were at 12:00 straight up when set at center detent. Someone in assembly just didn’t take the time to align up properly.
The jury is out on this one, its either assemblies error or Greg's design error. Please take a photo and post it here or PM me. Dave said Greg allowed too big holes on the PCB tabs on the pots and so they could possibly have been soldered slightly off angle. Other possibility is assembly have been slack- please just pull the plastic knob out and try to re insert it correctly aligned.

Powering up my first thought was Man those is some damn bright LED’s. Much brighter than anything else in my gear. I have front projection and it actually adds a blue cast on the left side of the screen. Mr Chucky, is there an internal DIP switch that can be changed to control brightness?
Yeah, I agree. Its really my fault as I noticed that and forgot to pass on that grizzle to the team (they like shinny things). No DIPs that control that . I will get back to you if there is a simple fix. Sorry!!

I was very surprised see that the center front had to be attenuated almost the max -12 dB to match.
This one really puzzles me and Dave the Bitch. All our tests indicate perfect level on our setup. Are you using the same sensitivity speaker on the center??

The down side is there’s an enormous bass boost that makes it unlistenable for me.
How many dB do you perceive, again at our end its fine and this is the first mention we had??

It has been mentioned before how the previous SM v1 ran hot. So does this one!
This is a really difficult issue from a consumer perspective. It should run at around 45 C (from memory). Now many people perceive that as very hot. I personally consider hot at around 60 C. The thing does dissipate all heat to the case and there is some heat but there are no serious hot spots that might age the unit over time. Can you measure the temperature for me? As I have said before the SM uses two really powerful DSP's plus around 30 other chips to do its tricks and it does take around 6 watts of energy.

Regards

Chucky

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Hi Sonik

Thanks for the detailed review. Yay to all the good stuff, now for the bad stuff.......in order.

Also there are errors: if you look at the output for various decode modes it does not show an outputted center front for the 5.1 configuration.
DOH!!!! Will pass that on to Chris


The metal top was loose & rattled a bit when I picked it up
That's not right, someone has been slack at our end me thinks, please investigate and report back to us whats causing it (feel free to fix if you can). Whoops

I noticed that none of the output level knobs were at 12:00 straight up when set at center detent. Someone in assembly just didn’t take the time to align up properly.
The jury is out on this one, its either assemblies error or Greg's design error. Please take a photo and post it here or PM me. Dave said Greg allowed too big holes on the PCB tabs on the pots and so they could possibly have been soldered slightly off angle. Other possibility is assembly have been slack- please just pull the plastic knob out and try to re insert it correctly aligned.

Powering up my first thought was Man those is some damn bright LED’s. Much brighter than anything else in my gear. I have front projection and it actually adds a blue cast on the left side of the screen. Mr Chucky, is there an internal DIP switch that can be changed to control brightness?
Yeah, I agree. Its really my fault as I noticed that and forgot to pass on that grizzle to the team (they like shinny things). No DIPs that control that . I will get back to you if there is a simple fix. Sorry!!

I was very surprised see that the center front had to be attenuated almost the max -12 dB to match.
This one really puzzles me and Dave the Bitch. All our tests indicate perfect level on our setup. Are you using the same sensitivity speaker on the center??

The down side is there’s an enormous bass boost that makes it unlistenable for me.
How many dB do you perceive, again at our end its fine and this is the first mention we had??

It has been mentioned before how the previous SM v1 ran hot. So does this one!
This is a really difficult issue from a consumer perspective. It should run at around 45 C (from memory). Now many people perceive that as very hot. I personally consider hot at around 60 C. The thing does dissipate all heat to the case and there is some heat but there are no serious hot spots that might age the unit over time. Can you measure the temperature for me? As I have said before the SM uses two really powerful DSP's plus around 30 other chips to do its tricks and it does take around 6 watts of energy.

Regards

Chucky

Thanks for the extensive reply

If I can find my torx tools I'm sure a quick tighten will fix the loose top.

Here's a quick pic showing the knobs set at center detent. On 2nd exam it looks like right rear is straight up:

RE: LED brightness. I bet I'm the only one on the forum that is affected by this. Most people have direct view flat panels that often have room lights on. Under those conditions the brightness would be just fine.

I rechecked balance & going by the SPL meter center front is correct at ~ - 11 dB. Again the Anthem has internal noise generator to adjust balance on set up. This is not a new fancy automatic program, just channel selectable which you adjust and then saved for global balance. My Anthem outputs go to my Adcom 555 power amps, 3 of them, and then of course to the speakers. I use two BIC America 6.5" 2 way speakers for center front, one inverted & above the screen and one sitting on the floor normal position. My big Infinity Kappa 8's are rated at 88 dB sensitivity, the little BIC's at 89. At any rate I guess that's what the controls are for on the SM, eh? On extended listening I would refine my comments that the center front doesn't play so much "loud" but it is a hard center front, for sure. I usually had my DPL II adjusted to medium width just enough to hold the center front image if I was setting on one side of the couch with a guest. And with anything stereo to surround it is variable, even with the SM. On Jennifer Warnes album The Hunter in 4.1 the vocals seemed to lean to the right. With 5.1 it straightned out. And BTW her track Way Down Deep is such a good bass evaluation track. I nudged the SM's sub woof down just a bit based on this. Unlike the other chs I have only adjusted sub woof by ear.

RE:TSS bass
Again on further listening it is hard to decide if it is actually an increase in bass or if it just sounds muddier than it should. Maybe the expanse of the sound field makes the bass sound boomy by comparison? Oh and also I have a lot of exposure to various HRTF type things, JVC, Polk Magic speakers, Bob Carver stuff, etc. Other than the apparent tonal change there's no strange artifacts I would usually associate with this type of enhancement. No phasieness when I move my head, etc.

I measured the surface temp on the box. I used a good old fashioned mercury thermometer it has a nice expanded scale. After about 15 mins it read 104F/40C so it is within the limits you mentioned. Except for my power amps I usually turn off everything after a music/movie session. Because of thermal cycling expand/contract do you have any suggestions as to leaving the SM v2 on all the time? Or does it matter? Maybe I should turn my OCD off....

 

[chucky3042]

Thanks for the extensive reply

If I can find my torx tools I'm sure a quick tighten will fix the loose top.

Here's a quick pic showing the knobs set at center detent. On 2nd exam it looks like right rear is straight up:
View attachment 41029

RE: LED brightness. I bet I'm the only one on the forum that is affected by this. Most people have direct view flat panels that often have room lights on. Under those conditions the brightness would be just fine.

I rechecked balance & going by the SPL meter center front is correct at ~ - 11 dB. Again the Anthem has internal noise generator to adjust balance on set up. This is not a new fancy automatic program, just channel selectable which you adjust and then saved for global balance. My Anthem outputs go to my Adcom 555 power amps, 3 of them, and then of course to the speakers. I use two BIC America 6.5" 2 way speakers for center front, one inverted & above the screen and one sitting on the floor normal position. My big Infinity Kappa 8's are rated at 88 dB sensitivity, the little BIC's at 89. At any rate I guess that's what the controls are for on the SM, eh? On extended listening I would refine my comments that the center front doesn't play so much "loud" but it is a hard center front, for sure. I usually had my DPL II adjusted to medium width just enough to hold the center front image if I was setting on one side of the couch with a guest. And with anything stereo to surround it is variable, even with the SM. On Jennifer Warnes album The Hunter in 4.1 the vocals seemed to lean to the right. With 5.1 it straightned out. And BTW her track Way Down Deep is such a good bass evaluation track. I nudged the SM's sub woof down just a bit based on this. Unlike the other chs I have only adjusted sub woof by ear.

RE:TSS bass
Again on further listening it is hard to decide if it is actually an increase in bass or if it just sounds muddier than it should. Maybe the expanse of the sound field makes the bass sound boomy by comparison? Oh and also I have a lot of exposure to various HRTF type things, JVC, Polk Magic speakers, Bob Carver stuff, etc. Other than the apparent tonal change there's no strange artifacts I would usually associate with this type of enhancement. No phasieness when I move my head, etc.

I measured the surface temp on the box. I used a good old fashioned mercury thermometer it has a nice expanded scale. After about 15 mins it read 104F/40C so it is within the limits you mentioned. Except for my power amps I usually turn off everything after a music/movie session. Because of thermal cycling expand/contract do you have any suggestions as to leaving the SM v2 on all the time? Or does it matter? Maybe I should turn my OCD off....

Quick rushed reply!

OK we stuffed up badly on the knobs! Pull them off and re align, push on. Really sorry

 

[DRChrisC]

The metal top was loose & rattled a bit when I picked it up

Sorry about the issues, thanks for pointing them out, here's the method I used for fixing prototypes with a rattly top, just doing up the screws tighter doesn't always help, we'll make sure production is testing them and doing this fix. If anyone else has this issue follow the guide below to fix.

Surround Master v2 Rattly top fix - doing this will not affect your warranty.
1. Take front off. You'll need a 5/64 Allen key to undo the front screws. The front is better than the back, if you go from the back you have to slide the main board out. The screws are #6-32 3/8 Countersunk screws 304 Stainless Steel.

2. You can leave the front board connectors connected.
3. Cut up some slivers of plastic about 3mm wide and 20mm long (just a cut up clear piece of plastic from some product packaging would work) and wedge them inbetween the top extrusion and the main extrusion. I just push them in as far as I can. be sure to leave space for the screw. You may need to make them wider or thinner depending on your box.

4. Trim plastic to length, don't worry about it sticking out, that's good, we'll use the front plate to push it in.

5. Screw the right side screws in.

6. Screw the left two screws in. That should be it! The plastic should be pretty well hidden, if it's pushing the extrusion out to the side the plastic is probably too wide.

I noticed that none of the output level knobs were at 12:00 straight up when set at center detent. Someone in assembly just didn’t take the time to align up properly. I didn’t bother to reset as I figured they wouldn’t be set at center anyway after adjusting balance.

Fixing the knobs
To get any tight knobs off I use a utility knife, a piece of plastic or something else underneath to protect the front plate and a bit of care and patience. Just slowly wiggle it off.

Thanks! Happy listening

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Wow what a reply! You guys are sweet as. I would have never thought to use plastic shims to tighten the top. Maybe for a quick fix I'll just place a Tice Digital Audio Block on it.

I would have expected the knobs to just easily pull off. Hmmm.... The technique you mentioned is good & I'm sure I'll do that and reset. Thanks!

 

[roundhousequad]

so kinda like the match book for our 8 tracks. Just kidding

 

[bob.stek]

I am envious of those who have received their unit already. Did mine get sent surface mail? (I'm posting with the hope that immediately after this is posted, UPS will ring my doorbell!)

 

[Sonik Wiz]

b.stek
Did UPS come through for you?
Jon Urban has Santa visited you in June?

 

[bob.stek]

b.stek
Did UPS come through for you?
Jon Urban has Santa visited you in June?

<heavy sigh> UPS did deliver today, but it was from Amazon. :-(

Tomorrow!
Tomorrow!
UPS
Tomorrow!
You're always a day away

 

[JonUrban]

b.stek
Did UPS come through for you?
Jon Urban has Santa visited you in June?

No Santa. Just rain...............and more rain.

 

[chucky3042]

I am envious of those who have received their unit already. Did mine get sent surface mail? (I'm posting with the hope that immediately after this is posted, UPS will ring my doorbell!)

Hi.
I am in China. Please email [email protected] to confirm. It's been a very sloppy procedure at out end.... Apologies

 

[4-earredwonder]

No Santa. Just rain...............and more rain.

AND MORE RAIN

 

[Soundfield]

Don't know if there have been any UK sightings yet - "Your Freight Agent" tells me that mine is "Ready for UPS (label created)" so still has a long journey to look forward to!

 

[karlkastner]

Powering up my first thought was Man those is some damn bright LED’s. Much brighter than anything else in my gear. I have front projection and it actually adds a blue cast on the left side of the screen. Mr Chucky, is there an internal DIP switch that can be changed to control brightness?

I can't deal with bright lights or glare when trying to watch a screen or relax with music. I'll have to create a shield to block the display, which is a shame. Need a dimmer on this.

 

[JonUrban]

I just got the "Label Printed and ready to go" along with a UPS tracking number, so at least I know mine is ready for a long journey around the globe.