Ortofon - a miserable failure for CD-4

[Quad D]

AOQ, I have read thus thread with great interest, and I understand completely your frustration with CD-4. I took the plunge in 1976 with the following equipment: the receiver I had was JCPenney unit (likely made for them by Panasonic) that had two matrix decoders and 2 4-Channel inputs for tape and aux. I connected a Fisher CD-4 demodulator (a clone of the JVC 4DD5) to it. My turntable was a Pioneer PL-10 that I had fitted with an AT AT 14Sa cartridge. From the beginning, I had variable results from the format. Some records played perfectly (Carly Simon No Secrets and Hotcakes) while others had inner groove issues (Roberta Flack Killing Me Softly) and then there is one that is unlistenable (Cat Steven's Greatest Hits,) on any CD-4 demodulator I have owned. I think that at least some issues are due to record pressing problems. Others are clearly the result of the format failing to reach maturity, IMO. In 1979, the JCPenney receiver blew its output stages and could not be repaired, so I was quad-less until I got on the internet in the early 90s when I bought a Panasonic Quad receiver and a Panasonic strain-gauge cartridge. CD-4 was awful on that unit, so I started searching for different gear, and got no results until eBay came along.

I won't bore you with all of the various Receivers and CD-4 demodulators I bought in my search. But in the early 2000s, I lucked into a nice Lafayette LR 5000 (likely made by Pioneer) that has a fairly decent demodulator along with a full logic SQ decoder. It's CD-4 performance is only marginally better than the Fisher demodulator. I still have it as a standby along with a JVC 4VR 5436 receiver which has an excellent CD-4 demodulator in it. Cat Steven's Greatest Hits is still unlistenable, however.

Fast-forward to 8 years ago: I was finally able to get my hands on a Sansui QRX-9001 fron QRXRestore, and that is when CD-4 started to improve for me. That receiver is the heart if my quad system. I'm using a KAB modded Technics SL 1200 Mk2 (Cardas rewire and before you ask, I with the tech an told him that the wiring had to be at 100,000 pF, which he agreed to do.) The cartridge I'm using is an Audio Technica VMH 750SH, and I am finally getting great sound on most of my CD-4 records. Last night I listened to Seals and Crofts Summer Breeze (it has a little background hiss because it got played with a standard elliptical stylus... ), Eric Clapton 451 Ocean Boulevard, and Judy Collins Colors of the Day. Summer Breeze and the Judy Collins I bought while I was still in college. The Eric Clapton is a used one I picked up for 10 bucks, it has a few scratches but demodulates flawlessly.

I could go on but I am tired of typing with my thumbs! Feel free to ask me anything you want. I promise to be briefer!

Turntable (tonearm) is very important on difficult records, stability of tracking and precise anti-skating. You improved decoder (in my view Sansui iz great), cartridge and turntable so better results are not surprising. I use AT-VM95SH and have no problems with any record, on QRQ-6001. That cartridge is even tolerant of anti-skating, it can work fine without it.

 

[quadjoe]

Turntable (tonearm) is very important on difficult records, stability of tracking and precise anti-skating. You improved decoder (in my view Sansui iz great), cartridge and turntable so better results are not surprising. I use AT-VM95SH and have no problems with any record, on QRQ-6001. That cartridge is even tolerant of anti-skating, it can work fine without it.

I have the cartridge and tonearm dialed in very well, everything sounds great. I know that CD-4 is a pain, but think about what they were able to do given the technology of the time. It's really quite remarkable. That said, RCA/JVC needed a little more time to get CD-4 right. Most people I knew at the time either didn't want to put the effort into it, or just gave up and played the records in SQ or QS modes.

 

[Quad D]

I have the cartridge and tonearm dialed in very well, everything sounds great. I know that CD-4 is a pain, but think about what they were able to do given the technology of the time. It's really quite remarkable. That said, RCA/JVC needed a little more time to get CD-4 right. Most people I knew at the time either didn't want to put the effort into it, or just gave up and played the records in SQ or QS modes.

When it is working CD-4 is best, and I had setups with Dolby, DTS, etc.....
There is something magic about soundstage, and fully analog.

 

[quadjoe]

I agree Quad D. It can be amazing.

 

[Quad D]

I agree Quad D. It can be amazing.

Try to get Doors Greatest hits in CD-4 (the original, not the reissue), it is quite a trip. When I play it for my friends, they get out blown away by the experience.

 

[quadjoe]

Try to get Doors Greatest hits in CD-4 (the original, not the reissue), it is quite a trip. When I play it for my friends, they get out blown away by the experience.

Yes! My friends react the same way. I bought mine in 1975, and it still plays perfectly. I actually bought my Pioneer turntable and AT 14Sa the same year, I wanted a quad system and bought the turntable a year before I bought my receiver. Another great CD-4 to demo for people is Nilsson Schmilsson.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

After having the ortofon SL20Q cartridge looked at, it was determined there was about 600 hours of play left on the stylus, and the cantilever could be repaired. I had that done, and have the cartridge in my possession now.

I took the opportunity to cue up Joni Mitchell - Help Me, and play it through 4 times using my Technics SL-1700 turntable through the marantz cd400 demodulator using:
The ortofon SL20Q cartridge paired with the MCA-76 head amp
The signet TK7Su cartridge (vintage CD4 cartridge) - previously retipped since replacement styli cannot be found
Audio-Technica VM750SH (modern cartridge with a shibata stylus)
Audio-Technica VM540ML fitted with the shibata stylus from the VM750SH

Samples can be found in the description of my latest live stream to the QuadCast youtube channel

- no need to watch this whole rambly mess, it's basically all the info here, just bring it up and use the link to grab the zip file.

The download includes 4 .wav files labeled A, B, C, D. Feel free to take a listen and comment, and decide what sounds good or bad, and what your preference is. (I've not formatted them for 5.1 playback, they're just 4.0 wav files created in sound forge. If they don't playback right and you wish to participate, let me know and I'll reformat a new set. Sorry - just thought about that now.)

After enough time has passed for comment, I'll reveal what is what. And maybe I'll run the winning cartridge through a few other demodulators for fun.

 

[gvl_guy]

Nope, I just play it through the QS decoder or just plain stereo, which sounds infinitely better. I've always believed it to be a poor pressing, and when I bought it in 1978, it was the last quad record in the store. I never even bothered to return it. I also know of a few other people who have had this issue.

Yes, it's notorious for having those "sandpaper" problems. Thank you A&M Records. (The company that couldn't stick to just one quad system and kept changing their minds )

 

[fredblue]

After having the ortofon SL20Q cartridge looked at, it was determined there was about 600 hours of play left on the stylus, and the cantilever could be repaired. I had that done, and have the cartridge in my possession now.

I took the opportunity to cue up Joni Mitchell - Help Me, and play it through 4 times using my Technics SL-1700 turntable through the marantz cd400 demodulator using:
The ortofon cartridge
The signet TK7Su cartridge (vintage CD4 cartridge) - previously retipped since replacement styli cannot be found
Audio-Technica VM750SH (modern cartridge with a shibata stylus)
Audio-Technica lesser model fitted with the shibata stylus from the VM750SH (either the 440MLA or VM540ML - I got them mixed up and do not want to remove them from the headshell and have to redo the alignment, but they are supposed to be equivalent)

Samples can be found in the description of my latest live stream to the QuadCast youtube channel

- no need to watch this whole rambly mess, it's basically all the info here, just bring it up and use the link to grab the zip file.

The download includes 4 .wav files labeled A, B, C, D. Feel free to take a listen and comment, and decide what sounds good or bad, and what your preference is. (I've not formatted them for 5.1 playback, they're just 4.0 wav files created in sound forge. If they don't playback right and you wish to participate, let me know and I'll reformat a new set. Sorry - just thought about that now.)

After enough time has passed for comment, I'll reveal what is what. And maybe I'll run the winning cartridge through a few other demodulators for fun.

you're doing great work! keep it up!

when i have more time i will definitely check out your shootout.

i have to say, at this point i feel like i've done enough mucking around with CD-4 myself and think i've got it about as good as i'm going to get it, so there's only a mere handful of discs that don't play ball now.

fwiw at this point i've tried at least 10 different cartridges (bought either New, New Old Stock, or Used supposedly with "low hours of use" whatever that means! ) including an AT15S, 2 x AT15Sa's, 2 x AT440MLb's, an ATVM540ML, a JVC 4MD-10X, a Technics EPC-310MC (via an Ortofon MCA-76 pre-pre), a Denon DL110 and an Elac D90 E18 (which is a rebranded AT440MLb with the stylus housing in a black finish rather than the AT440MLa/b's usual "Lilac" colour, which was made by Audio Technica specially for Elac's Miracord 90 turntable) on 4 turntables (Pro-Ject Debut II w/Speed Box, Technics SL-1200Mk2, Technics SL-10 & Technics SL-7, using vintage AT T4P cart/headshells on the 2 x linear tracking turntables to accommodate the various microline stylii) and at least half a dozen standalone demodulators including a Marantz CD-400B, a Grundig Quadro (with the so-called "holy grail" CD-4392 chip), 2 x JVC 4DD-5's and latterly some rusty old heap of shit Toshiba demodulator (model escapes me at the mo. ) i got on eBay fairly recently that's enormous, weighs a ton and doesn't work at all... and you know what, after all that pallava the most consistent results are from an AT440MLb through a JVC 4DD-5 on the Technics SL-1210 i've been running since my 40th birthday (i'm 48 in September) all the experiments in between held promise, were ultimately failures in one way or another but along the way i did get some near-misses and glimmers of hope where a vintage AT Shibata cart outdid a modern AT Microline on certain tracks/discs only to be subsequently wrongfooted by another track/disc!

the moral of the story is.. don't give up.. but eventually we all have to settle for a compromise of sorts, life's way too bloody short! then you can give up!

 

[fredblue]

Yes, it's notorious for having those "sandpaper" problems. Thank you A&M Records. (The company that couldn't stick to just one quad system and kept changing their minds )

they're such useless plonkers they somehow lost all their Quad master tapes as well, so we'll probably never hear those lovely A&M Quads in all their glory!! oyyyy i'm verklempt, i tell you...

 

[jupp369]

you're doing great work! keep it up!

when i have more time i will definitely check out your shootout.

i have to say, at this point i feel like i've done enough mucking around with CD-4 myself and think i've got it about as good as i'm going to get it, so there's only a mere handful of discs that don't play ball now.

fwiw at this point i've tried at least 10 different cartridges (bought either New, New Old Stock, or Used supposedly with "low hours of use" whatever that means! ) including an AT15S, 2 x AT15Sa's, 2 x AT440MLb's, an ATVM540ML, a JVC 4MD-10X, a Technics EPC-310MC (via an Ortofon MCA-76 pre-pre), a Denon DL110 and an Elac D90 E18 (which is a rebranded AT440MLb with the stylus housing in a black finish rather than the AT440MLa/b's usual "Lilac" colour, which was made by Audio Technica specially for Elac's Miracord 90 turntable) on 4 turntables (Pro-Ject Debut II w/Speed Box, Technics SL-1200Mk2, Technics SL-10 & Technics SL-7, using vintage AT T4P cart/headshells on the 2 x linear tracking turntables to accommodate the various microline stylii) and at least half a dozen standalone demodulators including a Marantz CD-400B, a Grundig Quadro (with the so-called "holy grail" CD-4392 chip), 2 x JVC 4DD-5's and latterly some rusty old heap of shit Toshiba demodulator (model escapes me at the mo. ) i got on eBay fairly recently that's enormous, weighs a ton and doesn't work at all... and you know what, after all that pallava the most consistent results are from an AT440MLb through a JVC 4DD-5 on the Technics SL-1210 i've been running since my 40th birthday (i'm 48 in September) all the experiments in between held promise, were ultimately failures in one way or another but along the way i did get some near-misses and glimmers of hope where a vintage AT Shibata cart outdid a modern AT Microline on certain tracks/discs only to be subsequently wrongfooted by another track/disc!

the moral of the story is.. don't give up.. but eventually we all have to settle for a compromise of sorts, life's way too bloody short! then you can give up!

a lot of pain !!
can't understand that!

since 50ys I have a VM35 (eliptical 50kHz), AT 25? special-edi, the Panasonic with the 405 and now a NAGAOKA JT-322 with 4 different old JVC amplifiers (4VR5436 /5446 /GX500) = no problems at all!!!
adjust the vertical angle (changeged in 1975) and do the normal horizontal angle, not by the overhang mm, but with a ruler.
the declared overhang is for the 33 and 45's (do you really play old singles with your valuable stylus?), adjust it for LP and 7cm from outside and everything is fine!
I use a "schön schablone", you can simply make it for your own. But the idea with the pencil is it. Need only 1 line from center to border for the needle and some parallel lines to see the pencil (the diff from needle to pencil). watch out where it is parallel

Now I recorded all CD-4 and SQ without problems to 4 channel and I only play those 4ch via 4ch-tape-in from a 5.1 media player's HD. (easier than jump off and change after each song. I'm no more a disc jokey)

find your way and enjoy multichannel sound!

 

[jupp369]

a lot of pain !!
can't understand that!

since 50ys I have a VM35 (eliptical 50kHz), AT 25? special-edi, the Panasonic with the 405 and now a NAGAOKA JT-322 with 4 different old JVC amplifiers (4VR5436 /5446 /GX500) = no problems at all!!!
adjust the vertical angle (changeged in 1975) and do the normal horizontal angle, not by the overhang mm, but with a ruler.
the declared overhang is for the 33 and 45's (do you really play old singles with your valuable stylus?), adjust it for LP and 7cm from outside and everything is fine!
I use a "schön schablone", you can simply make it for your own. But the idea with the pencil is it. Need only 1 line from center to border for the needle and some parallel lines to see the pencil (the diff from needle to pencil). watch out where it is parallel

Now I recorded all CD-4 and SQ without problems to 4 channel and I only play those 4ch via 4ch-tape-in from a 5.1 media player's HD. (easier than jump off and change after each song. I'm no more a disc jokey)

find your way and enjoy multichannel sound!

ooh, of course first the normal horizontal angle and then the vertical.
for the vertical: trust your ears for sandpaper and not a gauge. you can't measure it. use thin paper/karton instead the rubber mat till you know which high is needed.

 

[fredblue]

a lot of pain !!
can't understand that!

since 50ys I have a VM35 (eliptical 50kHz), AT 25? special-edi, the Panasonic with the 405 and now a NAGAOKA JT-322 with 4 different old JVC amplifiers (4VR5436 /5446 /GX500) = no problems at all!!!
adjust the vertical angle (changeged in 1975) and do the normal horizontal angle, not by the overhang mm, but with a ruler.
the declared overhang is for the 33 and 45's (do you really play old singles with your valuable stylus?), adjust it for LP and 7cm from outside and everything is fine!
I use a "schön schablone", you can simply make it for your own. But the idea with the pencil is it. Need only 1 line from center to border for the needle and some parallel lines to see the pencil (the diff from needle to pencil). watch out where it is parallel

Now I recorded all CD-4 and SQ without problems to 4 channel and I only play those 4ch via 4ch-tape-in from a 5.1 media player's HD. (easier than jump off and change after each song. I'm no more a disc jokey)

find your way and enjoy multichannel sound!

oh i'm not the original poster and i'm not complaining about CD-4

if you re-read what i posted you'll see i feel like i've got CD-4 to a point i'm happy with it now (admittedly after a fair bit of experimentation, teeth gnashing and tearing my hair out in years gone by) but i'm at peace with CD-4 now, mostly..✌

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I decided what use is this shoot-out if I can't even list one one of the carts is - and so I've unmounted the mystery AT cart that's in the mix, and it is the VM540ML.

I suppose this is a better choice in the line up, as it has both AT carts in the line up being currently available product.

It is rather unfortunate that I don't have an ML stylus available that the 540 comes with, as how that performs compared to the shibata upgrade would be quite relevant information. But, this shoot out is the best I can do at the moment.

I'm quite happy to see the video is getting comments.

More to come...

 

[MidiMagic]

Yes, it's notorious for having those "sandpaper" problems. Thank you A&M Records. (The company that couldn't stick to just one quad system and kept changing their minds )

Every time they changed, they went to a worse system.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

I'm kind of curious if these samples reflect other's experience of "successful playback", as to be honest I'm not entirely pleased with any of the 4. But will hold back on further thoughts until more opinions come in on the youtube comments and this thread, at which point I'll reveal what each sample is and go from there.

 

[gvl_guy]

Every time they changed, they went to a worse system.

They should have stuck with QS!

 

[Sthunderrocker]

I'm kind of curious if these samples reflect other's experience of "successful playback", as to be honest I'm not entirely pleased with any of the 4. But will hold back on further thoughts until more opinions come in on the youtube comments and this thread, at which point I'll reveal what each sample is and go from there.

I use an MLB so I'm interested in the results.