Ortofon - a miserable failure for CD-4

[Electric Moo]

Yeah that MCA76 clearly has a CD-4 button on it, and it was paired with the MC20!

What the heck?

Rant on...

Fwiw I have an Empire 4000 Diii cart + stylus that is supposed to work successfully with CD4. Might not be too expensive to find?

I don't have a CD4 decoder though, so have never had a chance to try it out.

Good luck!

 

[Owen Smith]

Two people I know (not on QQ) that do CD4 playback both run two turntables, one for CD4 and the other for everything else. This means their difficult to obtain legacy AT cartridges rated for CD4 don't get worn out playing stereo, and the whole arm and deck setup can be optimised for CD4. The other turntable can use modern cartridges so wearing out the stylus is less of a concern.

 

[par4ken]

The SL-20Q was made for Quad! The MCA-76 was made to go with it. I purchased a used SL-20Q and was still getting a bit of "sandpaper" on the innermost grooves. I chalked that up to the stylus being a bit worn. I believe that the Q model differs from the others in more than just the Shibata (actually bi-radial elliptical) tip.

Also I was getting good results with the post quad era Sony XL-MC3. I have two of those the one with the most miles on it produced the same sandpaper effects on the inner grooves. The newer one worked much better, better than anything that I had tried previously.

Now I use the Audio-Technica AT-ART9XA. It is expensive but worth it! Sound quality wise it is even better than the Sony. Coupled with the MCA-76 I don't hear the sandpaper anymore. That being said I find that CD-4 records are never quite as clean sounding as stereo or matrix.
Why play around with vintage cartridges when you don't have to. The AT-ART9XA is a much newer design, quote "Neodymium magnet and permendur yoke significantly increase magnetic energy".

I think that the CD-4 button on the MCA-76 just filters out of band signals (like you might get from an old style TV set). I don't notice any audible difference switching it in and out.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at-art9xa
Edit: Oops, I posted about the Denon not the Ortofon! will try to find it and post!

Edit #2: Here is the Ortofon information.

Due to careless handling on my part I broke the tip off my Ortofon cartridge, at some point I may have it re-tipped. I suspect that a true Shibatta might work even better than the Bi-radial elliptical. On the other hand I didn't think that their cartridge sounded nearly as good as the Sony, not sure if the repair would really be worth it then?

 

[Cyber 1]

I've been considering for a while picking up a "free" VM750SH once I accumulate enough amazon points from my amazon credit card to get one for free. It's the one that actually comes with a proper shibata tipped stylus. And it's rated higher than ones claimed to work with CD4. But....that enters into that "shortcut / better idea" territory that gets us into trouble - although there's

As you most likely know all the mid level AT MC cartridges can swap out to different stylus tips.
The one thing I can tell you is the VM750 has a real wonky spike in the top end and in my personal opinion it is a dog. A 440 MLB with a shibata tip would be a better choice IMP

I've had both ones in the past

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

As you most likely know all the mid level AT MC cartridges can swap out to different stylus tips.
The one thing I can tell you is the VM750 has a real wonky spike in the top end and in my personal opinion it is a dog. A 440 MLB with a shibata tip would be a better choice IMP

I've had both ones in the past

Hmmm.....well, I already have a few of those. Which gives me a great opportunity to further science - buy the VM750, and test the stylus in the cartridge it came with, and then swap it out to my other AT cartridges, and see which does better.

I think I have a future quadcast in the works.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Of course, I have one last "holy grail" thought in mind. Ask Peter Ledermann if he could custom build a modern strain gauge cartridge that pairs with the Panasonic demodulator. I shudder to think of the thousands that would cost though, the current strain gague system that is offered is $12k. Plus, the Panasonic is known for needing to be fine tuned frequently, while the marantz is pretty stable once you set it up, so buying something that is tied to the Panasonic is rather limiting. (although perhaps if one were to refurbish a panasonic....but then that brings up the whole baggage of no modern method of recalibrating a demodulator if one starts to dig in and rebuild one....) But an idea for someone out there that has deep pockets.

Bah....it's around this point of mulling over many high effort and high expense options that I throw my hands up, and go, it's not worth it for the limited number of things that have no other options. Just send the records of things that have no master tapes anymore to the experts, get those archived, and junk all the cd4 equipment and leave it back in the stone age where it belongs.

And now that I've declared CD4 a miserable failure that I've given up on "for good" - I think it's time for me to go grab my Technics SL1700 and recap kit, and spend some time in the basement fixing this up. To quote John Cage, "I'll beat my head against that wall."

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

The SL-20Q was made for Quad! The MCA-76 was made to go with it. I purchased a used SL-20Q and was still getting a bit of "sandpaper" on the innermost grooves. I chalked that up to the stylus being a bit worn. I believe that the Q model differs from the others in more than just the Shibata tip.

Also I was getting good results with the post quad era Sony XL-MC3. I have two of those the one with the most miles on it produced the same sandpaper effects on the inner grooves. The newer one worked much better, better than anything that I had tried previously.

Now I use the Audio-Technica AT-ART9XA. It is expensive but worth it! Sound quality wise it is even better than the Sony. Coupled with the MCA-76 I don't hear the sandpaper anymore. That being said I find that CD-4 records are never quite as clean sounding as stereo or matrix.
Why play around with vintage cartridges when you don't have to. The AT-ART9XA is a much newer design "Neodymium magnet and permendur yoke significantly increase magnetic energy".

I think that the CD-4 button on the MCA-76 just filters out of band signals (like you might get from an old style TV set). I don't notice any audible difference switching it in and out.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at-art9xa
Edit: Oops, I posted about the Denon not the Ortofon! will try to find it and post!

Thanks for digging further than I did - exactly what this thread needed. Ok - not sure where the online sorce that listed the SL20Q as having a frequency response to 20k came from - another case of "I read it on the internet, it must be true".

What's interesting is your linked document not only shows the SL20Q is documented by Ortofon as having a frequency response to 70k, but the MC20 is listed as having a frequency response to 60k. But then this document shows the Q having some extra specs for CD4, load impedence per channel of 100kohm, and a channel seperation at 30k of 20dB. Are those 2 specs alone enough to make the difference from the MC20?

I sense more expensive scientific experiments coming...

Ok - time to get the Technics in the basement and get that up and running to have a confirmed CD4 compatible turntable up and running for the future tests.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Turntable repair with Jonny Gators (a.k.a. why nothing ever gets done)

1. Look at Q8s to pick a few to listen to in the basement while repairing turntable
2. Think of the crackling problem the 8-track player in the quad deck in the basement was having last time, and decide I don't need that fucking stress today
3. Think of the old Sony SACD player that's sitting on top of the quad amp in the basement, just in need of a few patch cables to connect
4. Dig around for patch cables
5. Realize - I should probably configure that thing to make sure 5.1 downmixes to 4.0 properly - I'll need a way to view the screen for that setup
6. Dig out the portable DVD player in the basement that has an a/v input
7. Find the A/V cable that goes to the player is no longer with the player
8. Dig around for missing A/V cable. Find alternate cable that may work.
9. Connect alternate cable - nothing. Try half jacking it - get a flickery picture that won't work
10. Find A/V usb capture device, grab laptop, head to the basement. Download OBS to laptop. Watch Chrome close and reopen itself to autoupdate in the middle of the download.
11. Install OBS.
12. While OBS is installing, insert a D-V disc that won't require 5.1 to 4.0 downmix to be enabled, to at least test the audio cables I connected.
13. Notice no audio coming out of rears
14. Look at Sony SACD player display, and see it only detects the disc as a CD
15. eject and re-insert the disc - still only detects as CD
16. Insert another D-V disc - detects as a CD
17. Mutter a few curses, open up another tab in Chrome, and vent on a forum.

Time for me to go grab an SACD only disc and see if this player is toast for SACD, or if it just doesn't like D-V SACDs. At this rate, maybe I'll get the first capacitor replaced in time for dinner.

Would you believe they put me on pills as a kid?

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

After further testing, it turns out my Sony DVP-NS755V will playback SACD only discs as SACD, but will only detect hybrid discs as CD. Fucking great....

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

18. Determine Sony SACD player now detects all hybrid SACDs as CDs only - pressing the CD/SACD button presents an error that this button is not available for this disc.
19. Grab a nearby Q8, throw that in.
20. Begin to disassemble turntable - Q8 drags
21. Remove Q8 from player, mutter a few expletives, make a mental note to replace the belt on that player as it's on the original belt which is probably loose and slipping
22. Grab nearby Billy Joel SACD, throw that in the player - at least it will play that one
23. Notice that there is no Billy in the mix. Fuck....forgot about setting the downmixing.
24. Remove SACD, find nearby Renaldo and the Loaf CD. Perfect - just my vibe for today.
25. Begin recapping turntable
26. After Renaldo and the Loaf CD finishes, take a break from recapping to figure out how to set the Sony SACD player to downmix to 4.0. Put in Billy Joel SACD
27. Finish recapping turntable


There we go - a Technics SL1700 that should have stable speed for years to come. Dialing in the strobe to completely stationary is still taking me a bit of fine tuning tweaking, so perhaps this didn't need to be done - strobe turntables just aren't a good choice for the obsessive compulsive. But at least I have the confidence that this turntable is in tip top shape now.

Now then, time to figure out my next move with this turntable. Since it takes swappable headshells, at least I can mount both the Signet and Ortofon MC20 for this turntable and swap between them easily to continue banging my head against this wall, until I pick up some more cartridges.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Well, the verdict so far:

Technics turntable is a solid performer. Happy with it. Not sure I'm at a point where I'm ready to get rid of the NAD and use it for everything, but I'm happy with it for CD4 for now.
Signet cartridge is a solid performer on many CD4 records. Some still give me slight sandpaper on the inner grooves - but maybe those always did.
Ortofon MC20 is still a dud for CD4. Not sure what to do with it - perhaps it's worthwhile to sell since it is newly retipped and would be a quality cart for stereo use. I have no use for it, I prefer the sound of my Rondo Bronze for stereo playback.
MCA76 is something I ought to sell.....but being that I bought a 2nd one years after selling the first, it's probably cheaper to hold onto it. Inevitibly one of these days I'll get curious enough to buy an SL20Q cart to try pairing with it.

I suppose the next question I can easily answer is how modern Audio-Technica carts with a modern shibata styuls stack up against the Signet. Getting close to having the amazon points for that free cart.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Well...there was an SL20Q on eBay, and my curiosity got the better of me. It was listed as having few hours, and stylus "tip sharp as new". But....this is eBay, and this is a cartridge from the 70s, I'm not dillusional. Well.....no, I'm not dillusional, not about this.

Besides, that cantilever doesn't look straight from the pictures:

So, whatever....pulled the trigger. Mounted it to the turntable. Used some spare common double CD4 discs to test it, and.....well, no problems detecting the carrier. But - not a great sounding demodulation. There's often a hissy crackle I get. Certainly not pleasant to listen to. But - promising?

Do I dare spend the money for a retip?

Well....I got this far......I hate this hobby.....

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Well...there was an SL20Q on eBay, and my curiosity got the better of me. It was listed as having few hours, and stylus "tip sharp as new". But....this is eBay, and this is a cartridge from the 70s, I'm not dillusional. Well.....no, I'm not dillusional, not about this.



Besides, that cantilever doesn't look straight from the pictures:







So, whatever....pulled the trigger. Mounted it to the turntable. Used some spare common double CD4 discs to test it, and.....well, no problems detecting the carrier. But - not a great sounding demodulation. There's often a hissy crackle I get. Certainly not pleasant to listen to. But - promising?



Do I dare spend the money for a retip?

Nope. Don't fix no crooked cantilever.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Nope. Don't fix no crooked cantilever.

No, I definitely won't fix it. I'll leave that to the professionals. I've decided this time instead of picking a retip option from sound-smith and sending it in, I'd just send it as is for a $75 evaluation that can be applied to a repair, let them know I want it to be as close to original spec as possible, and see what they recommend.

Meanwhile, I traded in my amazon points for a new audio-technica cartridge with shibata tip, and plan on recording in samples with the shibata stylus on several audio-technica cartridges I've accumulated over the years, and see how those stack up against the Signet. I don't expect any of them to beat the Signet, but I'd love to find out for once and for all if one of them could ever equal it. Or who knows - maybe one of them will beat it.

These experiments should draw to a close my CD4 experiments. If a rebuilt SL20Q can't beat the Signet, nothing can.

Of course, there are always many more demodulator models I haven't tried out for myself.......

 

[fredblue]

No, I definitely won't fix it. I'll leave that to the professionals. I've decided this time instead of picking a retip option from sound-smith and sending it in, I'd just send it as is for a $75 evaluation that can be applied to a repair, let them know I want it to be as close to original spec as possible, and see what they recommend.

Meanwhile, I traded in my amazon points for a new audio-technica cartridge with shibata tip, and plan on recording in samples with the shibata stylus on several audio-technica cartridges I've accumulated over the years, and see how those stack up against the Signet. I don't expect any of them to beat the Signet, but I'd love to find out for once and for all if one of them could ever equal it. Or who knows - maybe one of them will beat it.

These experiments should draw to a close my CD4 experiments. If a rebuilt SL20Q can't beat the Signet, nothing can.

Of course, there are always many more demodulator models I haven't tried out for myself.......

in the words of Kate's Bush duet with David R Soul, "Don't Give Up On CD-4, Baybee"..!!

although that makes me QQ's biggest hypocrite because i have pretty much given up on CD-4, when it's working it's the best thing since sliced bread.. its just those niggling times when it starts to play up and i simply want to take a hammer to the whole kit and caboodle and go "HULK SMASH"!!!!!

 

[edisonbaggins]

in the words of Kate's Bush duet with David R Soul, "Don't Give Up On CD-4, Baybee"..!!

although that makes me QQ's biggest hypocrite because i have pretty much given up on CD-4, when it's working it's the best thing since sliced bread.. its just those niggling times when it starts to play up and i simply want to take a hammer to the whole kit and caboodle and go "HULK SMASH"!!!!!

I have sooooo much empathy for this statement.
CD-4 and I are cool. At the moment.
But it's a shady bitch, to be sure.
I expect to be let down, eventually!!!

 

[ndiamone]

You guys need to start hanging out at the Packard Sound Labs at the Library of Congress in Culpeper.
They have gear both native as well as modified by engineers that designed the format in question as well as by format aficionados to tell what is and what is not acceptable as reviewers/researchers.

So if some mythical Ortofon cart and stylus is somewhere doing it's CD-4 job acceptably or in superiority, they are going to have it.

 

[quadjoe]

AOQ, I have read thus thread with great interest, and I understand completely your frustration with CD-4. I took the plunge in 1976 with the following equipment: the receiver I had was JCPenney unit (likely made for them by Panasonic) that had two matrix decoders and 2 4-Channel inputs for tape and aux. I connected a Fisher CD-4 demodulator (a clone of the JVC 4DD5) to it. My turntable was a Pioneer PL-10 that I had fitted with an AT AT 14Sa cartridge. From the beginning, I had variable results from the format. Some records played perfectly (Carly Simon No Secrets and Hotcakes) while others had inner groove issues (Roberta Flack Killing Me Softly) and then there is one that is unlistenable (Cat Steven's Greatest Hits,) on any CD-4 demodulator I have owned. I think that at least some issues are due to record pressing problems. Others are clearly the result of the format failing to reach maturity, IMO. In 1979, the JCPenney receiver blew its output stages and could not be repaired, so I was quad-less until I got on the internet in the early 90s when I bought a Panasonic Quad receiver and a Panasonic strain-gauge cartridge. CD-4 was awful on that unit, so I started searching for different gear, and got no results until eBay came along.

I won't bore you with all of the various Receivers and CD-4 demodulators I bought in my search. But in the early 2000s, I lucked into a nice Lafayette LR 5000 (likely made by Pioneer) that has a fairly decent demodulator along with a full logic SQ decoder. It's CD-4 performance is only marginally better than the Fisher demodulator. I still have it as a standby along with a JVC 4VR 5436 receiver which has an excellent CD-4 demodulator in it. Cat Steven's Greatest Hits is still unlistenable, however.

Fast-forward to 8 years ago: I was finally able to get my hands on a Sansui QRX-9001 fron QRXRestore, and that is when CD-4 started to improve for me. That receiver is the heart if my quad system. I'm using a KAB modded Technics SL 1200 Mk2 (Cardas rewire and before you ask, I with the tech an told him that the wiring had to be at 100,000 pF, which he agreed to do.) The cartridge I'm using is an Audio Technica VMH 750SH, and I am finally getting great sound on most of my CD-4 records. Last night I listened to Seals and Crofts Summer Breeze (it has a little background hiss because it got played with a standard elliptical stylus... ), Eric Clapton 451 Ocean Boulevard, and Judy Collins Colors of the Day. Summer Breeze and the Judy Collins I bought while I was still in college. The Eric Clapton is a used one I picked up for 10 bucks, it has a few scratches but demodulates flawlessly.

I could go on but I am tired of typing with my thumbs! Feel free to ask me anything you want. I promise to be briefer!

 

[gvl_guy]

AOQ, I have read thus thread with great interest, and I understand completely your frustration with CD-4. I took the plunge in 1976 with the following equipment: the receiver I had was JCPenney unit (likely made for them by Panasonic) that had two matrix decoders and 2 4-Channel inputs for tape and aux. I connected a Fisher CD-4 demodulator (a clone of the JVC 4DD5) to it. My turntable was a Pioneer PL-10 that I had fitted with an AT AT 14Sa cartridge. From the beginning, I had variable results from the format. Some records played perfectly (Carly Simon No Secrets and Hotcakes) while others had inner groove issues (Roberta Flack Killing Me Softly) and then there is one that is unlistenable (Cat Steven's Greatest Hits,) on any CD-4 demodulator I have owned. I think that at least some issues are due to record pressing problems. Others are clearly the result of the format failing to reach maturity, IMO. In 1979, the JCPenney receiver blew its output stages and could not be repaired, so I was quad-less until I got on the internet in the early 90s when I bought a Panasonic Quad receiver and a Panasonic strain-gauge cartridge. CD-4 was awful on that unit, so I started searching for different gear, and got no results until eBay came along.

I won't bore you with all of the various Receivers and CD-4 demodulators I bought in my search. But in the early 2000s, I lucked into a nice Lafayette LR 5000 (likely made by Pioneer) that has a fairly decent demodulator along with a full logic SQ decoder. It's CD-4 performance is only marginally better than the Fisher demodulator. I still have it as a standby along with a JVC 4VR 5436 receiver which has an excellent CD-4 demodulator in it. Cat Steven's Greatest Hits is still unlistenable, however.

Fast-forward to 8 years ago: I was finally able to get my hands on a Sansui QRX-9001 fron QRXRestore, and that is when CD-4 started to improve for me. That receiver is the heart if my quad system. I'm using a KAB modded Technics SL 1200 Mk2 (Cardas rewire and before you ask, I with the tech an told him that the wiring had to be at 100,000 pF, which he agreed to do.) The cartridge I'm using is an Audio Technica VMH 750SH, and I am finally getting great sound on most of my CD-4 records. Last night I listened to Seals and Crofts Summer Breeze (it has a little background hiss because it got played with a standard elliptical stylus... ), Eric Clapton 451 Ocean Boulevard, and Judy Collins Colors of the Day. Summer Breeze and the Judy Collins I bought while I was still in college. The Eric Clapton is a used one I picked up for 10 bucks, it has a few scratches but demodulates flawlessly.

I could go on but I am tired of typing with my thumbs! Feel free to ask me anything you want. I promise to be briefer!

Good story. A challenge for sure. But here's the big question! Does your 9001 decode Cat Stevens?

I never had more of a problem with my CS than any other CD-4 record. But it's almost not worth the trouble. There's not much of a surround mix, at least not to my ears.

 

[quadjoe]

Good story. A challenge for sure. But here's the big question! Does your 9001 decode Cat Stevens?

I never had more of a problem with my CS than any other CD-4 record. But it's almost not worth the trouble. There's not much of a surround mix, at least not to my ears.

Nope, I just play it through the QS decoder or just plain stereo, which sounds infinitely better. I've always believed it to be a poor pressing, and when I bought it in 1978, it was the last quad record in the store. I never even bothered to return it. I also know of a few other people who have had this issue.