Playback DSD (natively) with a PC

[coolerking101]

To answer the thread subject question: no, it's not.

Simply convert the DSD files to PCM (.wav/.flac) files. Use 88/24 as the target format if you want the smallest files that are still 'hi rez' . You can do it easily with something like foobar's SACD plugin. Or course you have to 'rip' the SACD first.

If ripping is not an option, on-the-fly transcoding is fine. I simply object to the absurdly large DSD files inflated by their gobs of ultrasonic noise. (88/24 wav has some too...if you want it gone completely, choose a lower sample rate)

There should be no audible difference, despite imaginative claims to the contrary.

My entire SACD collection has already been ripped. So that’s not an issue. However, you have answered my underlying question which was, will tracks played in their native DSD format sound appreciably better than those that have been converted to PCM? It appears your answer is a resounding no. That’s the exact sort of personal experience I was looking for. Thank you.

 

[ssully]

It is experience you can verify yourself, using ABX comparator software (foobar has a plugin) to compare two versions directly, or nulling software to see/hear the 'difference' signal between them.

 

[HomerJAU]

Did you ever try listening to your ripped SACDs with PCM conversion? If so, did you feel like keeping it straight DSD was a significant improvement?

A friend and I years ago compared the same music from SACD (Oppo Player in DSD) vs. ripped/conversion in PCM and we both could not hear a difference.

 

[M-K]

My SACD player has analog outs, so there is native DSD playback.

But as many before recommended: convert it to 88/24 FLAC (2.0/5.1 whatever you want), then you can tag it or modify the tags. The handling of FLAC files is so easy an can played almost everywhere. You can apply gain (using Garry's superb MMH), if the rears are too quiet. As an example.

And I agree to Garry: the difference isn't audible.

 

[par4ken]

My entire SACD collection has already been ripped. So that’s not an issue. However, you have answered my underlying question which was, will tracks played in their native DSD format sound appreciably better than those that have been converted to PCM? It appears your answer is a resounding no. That’s the exact sort of personal experience I was looking for. Thank you.

My experience with the Oppo BDP-103 is that there is a huge difference in sound between native DSD and DSD converted to PCM. I would go with native DSD if possible. Even the Oppo manual acknowledges the difference in sound, politely saying that you may prefer one or the other.

For me listening to SACDs when converted (by the Oppo) they sound rather tape-ish (not surprising as they were mostly from tapes) but by switching to native DSD that anomalous sound character disappeared. The recording sounded much more natural, perhaps even a little harsh at times in comparison.

It has happened to me on a number of occasions that I've said to myself this doesn't sound right or this doesn't sound good as I remember. Each time upon examination I find that I was playing it in PCM! One cause was leaving the HDMI connection set to automatic, the other was that I previously had to play something in PCM to be able to downmix to 4.0. (from 5.1) and forgot to set it back. It is definitely not my imagination.

I have gotten good sounding PCM conversion results using Foobar to convert using the short filter and 176.4K sample rate. I have not yet done any comparison between native DSD and the foobar converted file to see if I still hear a difference. You can also play .dsf files via foobar which will use the selected settings to output as PCM.
DSD FIR filter

 

[omnipotent1]

To answer the thread subject question: no, it's not.

Simply convert the DSD files to PCM (.wav/.flac) files. Use 88/24 as the target format if you want the smallest files that are still 'hi rez' . You can do it easily with something like foobar's SACD plugin. Or course you have to 'rip' the SACD first.

If ripping is not an option, on-the-fly transcoding is fine. I simply object to the absurdly large DSD files inflated by their gobs of ultrasonic noise. (88/24 wav has some too...if you want it gone completely, choose a lower sample rate)

There should be no audible difference, despite imaginative claims to the contrary.

I think the Rob Watts/Chord brigade has a few million taps that would like to argue with you

 

[Owen Smith]

My experience with the Oppo BDP-103 is that there is a huge difference in sound between native DSD and DSD converted to PCM. I would go with native DSD if possible.

That could be the Oppo 103 doing a bad job of DSD to PCM conversion.

I have gotten good sounding PCM conversion results using Foobar to convert using the short filter and 176.4K sample rate. I have not yet done any comparison between native DSD and the foobar converted file to see if I still hear a difference.

That's the comparison you'd need to do to eliminate possible issues with the Oppo 103 DSD to PCM conversion.

 

[mandrix]

I play SACD .iso files in Foobar with the SACD component and pretty happy with it. I am going to try the FIR filters linked by @par4ken and see if I hear a difference.

 

[mandrix]

@par4ken I see the S-Audio Systems is showing pre - Foobar v2 settings. Which version of Foo are you using?

 

[Sal1950]

I play SACD .iso files in Foobar with the SACD component and pretty happy with it. I am going to try the FIR filters linked by @par4ken and see if I hear a difference.

Could you link me to the SACD component you have for Foobar?
TIA

 

[mandrix]

Could you link me to the SACD component you have for Foobar?
TIA

https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/

 

[MrSmithers]

I have to say I think there is a slight difference to listening to DSD files directly. You can still have great quality sounding audio by converting to PCM, but there is a slight 'dullness' introduced when comparing the files for me on my system. This is by either letting J River convert or manually converting to flac to 88.2k via the 32 bit floating point method Jim mentioned earlier. That certainly made it sound better than going directly to 24 bit / 88.2.

I think it's important to state that unless you have a DAC that is capable of decoding DSD natively, then it would be impossible to hear a difference - because you're listening to one PCM conversion versus another PCM conversion. Even if you are playing the DSD files.

I'm not saying the difference is that big that it's worth going to a heap of expense trying to get them to play, because it isn't....

I'd just say hold onto your DSD files that you've ripped in the hope that one day it's possible to play them over HDMI.

There is also the possibility of using a compatible blu ray player as a transport and streaming your DSD files over DLNA....

 

[mandrix]

Just for completion for you DVDA listeners here's the decoder for DVDA.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/dvdadecoder/

 

[par4ken]

@par4ken I see the S-Audio Systems is showing pre - Foobar v2 settings. Which version of Foo are you using?

I'm using V.1.6.16, That web page I linked to has been up for awhile, are settings/features different in V.2?

The "filter" is actually just a text file. The short filter link works, the other filter S-Audio DSD Filter link doesn't seem to work anymore.

 

[par4ken]

I have to say I think there is a slight difference to listening to DSD files directly. You can still have great quality sounding audio by converting to PCM, but there is a slight 'dullness' introduced when comparing the files for me on my system. This is by either letting J River convert or manually converting to flac to 88.2k via the 32 bit floating point method Jim mentioned earlier. That certainly made it sound better than going directly to 24 bit / 88.2.

I think it's important to state that unless you have a DAC that is capable of decoding DSD natively, then it would be impossible to hear a difference - because you're listening to one PCM conversion versus another PCM conversion. Even if you are playing the DSD files.

I'm not saying the difference is that big that it's worth going to a heap of expense trying to get them to play, because it isn't....

I'd just say hold onto your DSD files that you've ripped in the hope that one day it's possible to play them over HDMI.

There is also the possibility of using a compatible blu ray player as a transport and streaming your DSD files over DLNA....

The Oppo is capable of playing DSD natively.

Playing through my computer using Foobar whether the files pre converted to .flac or left as .dsf would all play back the same, no choice converted to PCM. I still like to keep them as .dsf so that they can play natively via the BDP-103. My BDP-95 on the other hand will not play .dsf from a thumb drive or network connection.

 

[mandrix]

I'm using V.1.6.16, That web page I linked to has been up for awhile, are settings/features different in V.2?

The "filter" is actually just a text file. The short filter link works, the other filter S-Audio DSD Filter link doesn't seem to work anymore.

Yes there are some differences. Some things are not now integrated into Foobar and don't need components, such as DTS.

I was able to download both filters.

Correction made.

 

[jimfisheye]

I use the 32:1 decimation setting in XLD (X Lossless Decoder).

If you had boutique PCM ADC and just average consumer DSD ADC, a transcode of DSD to PCM would finally be heard in fullest quality on the better PCM converters. And vice verse if you had boutique DSD ADC vs average consumer PCM ADC.

I want to say that the 'night and day' difference between average consumer DAC and boutique is no longer night and day. The lowest common denominator has been raised! Both with converters and with mic preamps found in small interfaces and smaller boards. Still, the analog circuitry in the DAC (and especially the low pass eq filter with SD sample rates) is what you're listening to. There's some consumer fare that can still be cloudy sounding. And there's the ultra cheap shit Amazon and Worst Purchase sells that has to be heard to be believed at how bad modern sound can still be! (Ever heard bluetooth connected headphones? That really has to be heard to be believed! I'd never heard audio "gurgle" before.)

Maybe I'll ask this:
If you're listening to a native DSD DAC and believe it to be better than your current native PCM DAC. What DSD DAC are you listening to? Have you transcoded any of your PCM audio to DSD and had the same result? ie. Clearer sound after transcoding to DSD?

Or might the premise be that round trip DSD the whole way is the caveat? Music recorded in DSD, mixed on a DSD supporting DAW, and mastered to DSD. With never any transcode to PCM nor any DA -> AD anywhere in the chain. Is that the only way it sounds better with native DSD DAC? Meaning as soon as you put the audio in PCM, some quality is lost forever?

I already think I know the answer and said so earlier. But those are my questions if someone comes along and says they hear better audio quality from DSD than PCM.

I have an Apogee Rosetta 800 192k and an Apogee PSX-100 SE. 10 channels of DAC with that. I use 4 channels of DAC in my MOTU 828mk3 for the 4 height channels at present. (Using the PSX100 for a separate stereo path right now for... reasons.) What DSD DAC would just blow my mind and make me want to transcode my PCM music collection to DSD? There's a loaded question but that's the question here, right?

 

[DuncanS]

I use the 32:1 decimation setting in XLD (X Lossless Decoder).

If you had boutique PCM ADC and just average consumer DSD ADC, a transcode of DSD to PCM would finally be heard in fullest quality on the better PCM converters. And vice verse if you had boutique DSD ADC vs average consumer PCM ADC.

I want to say that the 'night and day' difference between average consumer DAC and boutique is no longer night and day. The lowest common denominator has been raised! Both with converters and with mic preamps found in small interfaces and smaller boards. Still, the analog circuitry in the DAC (and especially the low pass eq filter with SD sample rates) is what you're listening to. There's some consumer fare that can still be cloudy sounding. And there's the ultra cheap shit Amazon and Worst Purchase sells that has to be heard to be believed at how bad modern sound can still be! (Ever heard bluetooth connected headphones? That really has to be heard to be believed! I'd never heard audio "gurgle" before.)

Maybe I'll ask this:
If you're listening to a native DSD DAC and believe it to be better than your current native PCM DAC. What DSD DAC are you listening to? Have you transcoded any of your PCM audio to DSD and had the same result? ie. Clearer sound after transcoding to DSD?

Or might the premise be that round trip DSD the whole way is the caveat? Music recorded in DSD, mixed on a DSD supporting DAW, and mastered to DSD. With never any transcode to PCM nor any DA -> AD anywhere in the chain. Is that the only way it sounds better with native DSD DAC? Meaning as soon as you put the audio in PCM, some quality is lost forever?

I already think I know the answer and said so earlier. But those are my questions if someone comes along and says they hear better audio quality from DSD than PCM.

I have an Apogee Rosetta 800 192k and an Apogee PSX-100 SE. 10 channels of DAC with that. I use 4 channels of DAC in my MOTU 828mk3 for the 4 height channels at present. (Using the PSX100 for a separate stereo path right now for... reasons.) What DSD DAC would just blow my mind and make me want to transcode my PCM music collection to DSD? There's a loaded question but that's the question here, right?

One of the things that 'amuses' me is that DSD is way more digital than PCM, without the digital noise shaping and decimation DSD DACs wouldn't work.

As an aside I first designed DSD/1-bit ADCs into a Seismic Instrumentation System many moons ago - it was the only way to get the high resolution, although the max. sample rate that you could get was very low back then.

 

[mandrix]

For whatever reason I've not played any DSD through my newest AVR. According to the manual it's capped to the lower rates. Will accept the two file formats via USB port.
Whilst looking for DSD playback from a pc, I found this. Untested by me.
https://support.bluos.net/hc/en-us/articles/360019447014-Playing-DSD-Files-in-BluOS

 

[ssully]

I think the Rob Watts/Chord brigade has a few million taps that would like to argue with you

How many 'taps' are in the human auditory system? Enough to let them hear stuff beyond 22kHz? Let the brigade prove it can do it. It would be game-changing.

My experience with the Oppo BDP-103 is that there is a huge difference in sound between native DSD and DSD converted to PCM.

A huge difference should be utter child's play to ABX. Go for it, and get back to us with details. (While I wait, I'll read War and Peace. Twice.)

I would go with native DSD if possible. Even the Oppo manual acknowledges the difference in sound, politely saying that you may prefer one or the other.

Did you expect them to write, "Hey, reader, you know that DSD stuff you paid extra for....truth is, it doesn't sound different from PCM" ?


[the usual sighted comparison anecdotes, deleted for brevity]