Playback DSD (natively) with a PC

[Owen Smith]

I'd be interested to know what devices people are using to decode 'multi-channel' DSD audio streams. Are there any AVR's that can do this via a network connection?

Oppo 203 is my player and I send DSD over HDMI to my Arcam AVR31 amp to decode. I suspect it converts to PCM internally (which I'm fine with) since speaker delays apply. There's no option on my amp to say I want native DSD to the DAC instead. I need the speaker delays anyway to get the centre of the stereo image in the correct place, I've stopped using Stereo Direct for analogue stereo sources because having the stereo image in the correct place improves things substantially.

 

[marpow]

Post 1 wasn't by me.

Oh, shoot, sorry, I edited my post and corrected it to Cooler King, you both have the same color avatar handle and I did not pay attention enough.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

I would transcode to PCM on the fly. That would ensure you still have the original audio quality should you need it in the future. Foobar, after adjusting settings, can do this with perfect results. By default it uses less precise decimation methods.

It's important to NOT normalize or clip IMO. Don't boost by +6db either. If you do it wrong, you end up modifying the audio more than you should. You could also throw album/track levels off. Just reach for the receiver's volume button, man! Or use ReplayGain if you have to.

 

[ssully]

I'm not referring to conversions, I'm simply replacing my old CDs with their analogues in DSD or SACD if I can find them,

you'll likely be encountering different mastering, then.

 

[jimfisheye]

That's what some of us are gently trying to suggest. The source mastering (good or bad) is the difference heard. Not any alteration by the format! The difference between some masterings can be shocking.

And of course there's always more than one variable! Throw a little level difference in along with that. Forget to click off a random suck button on your AVR that you maybe didn't even know was turned on.

Some of the suggestions and comments are aimed at experimenting and leading to discovering and proving it to yourself. Don't just believe me. Do the thing and find out yourself!

 

[Sal1950]

I'm not referring to conversions, I'm simply replacing my old CDs with their analogues in DSD or SACD if I can find them, if not I maintain them, but I never make conversions for the worse, in any case I resample so that they take up less space, but I can. To avoid it, I am trying to recover all the ones that I changed from 24/96 to 24/48 from the original sources at their original resolution.

Basicly a waste of time and resources.
Not sure what you mean by "analogues in DSD" ? DSD is digital just like PCM.
If the CD and DSD releases sound different, either the mastering was altered or something
is wrong on the DAC playback.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

When it comes to DSD and PCM comparisons, I thought people here were using the same DSD source but either transcoding DSD to PCM prior to sending it to an AVR via HDMI or sending the native DSD stream via HDMI to an AVR.

 

[ssully]

Basicly a waste of time and resources.
Not sure what you mean by "analogues in DSD" ? DSD is digital just like PCM.

This is what the word 'analog' means to most people who aren't audio or tech heads:

analog: a person or thing seen as comparable to another.

synonym: "equivalents in DSD"

 

[ssully]

When it comes to DSD and PCM comparisons, I thought people here were using the same DSD source but either transcoding DSD to PCM prior to sending it to an AVR via HDMI or sending the native DSD stream via HDMI to an AVR.

They should at least be doing that, if they intend to make such a comparison.

Obviously (but perhaps not to some), a separate SACD release of an album already on CD stands a great chance of being a different mastering (EQ, compression,source), making them useless for comparing DSD to PCM.

Even the CD layer of a hybrid SACD cannot be assumed to have the same mastering as the DSD layer...as famously demonstrated by the old Dark Side of the Moon SACD.

 

[par4ken]

When it comes to DSD and PCM comparisons, I thought people here were using the same DSD source but either transcoding DSD to PCM prior to sending it to an AVR via HDMI or sending the native DSD stream via HDMI to an AVR.

I'm talking about the same source SACD played via the analogue outputs of the Oppo BDP-103 or BDP-95 (I own both). And I repeat that there is a huge difference.

I'm not saying that DSD is superior to PCM but the conversion to PCM as done by the Oppo far from perfect.

I have no opinion on how someones AVR handles/converts DSD. I'm sure that some do a better job than others. Assuming that there is a difference in sound quality how would you ever know when your AVR is converting everything to PCM anyway?

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I'm talking about the same source SACD played via the analogue outputs of the Oppo BDP-103 or BDP-95 (I own both)...

I'm able to confirm that the analogue outputs on my OPPO UDP-203 are an improvement over my OPPO BDP-103, when connected to the same amplifiers

 

[par4ken]

What does 'confirm' mean to you?

Use your ears! Listening is the final and definitive test!

 

[Owen Smith]

I'm talking about the same source SACD played via the analogue outputs of the Oppo BDP-103 or BDP-95 (I own both). And I repeat that there is a huge difference.

I did comparisons of my Oppo 95 converting to PCM vs playing DSD to the analogue multi channel inputs of my previous AV amp. I was never able to hear any difference, except that Tubular Bells played as DSD came out of the wrong speakers (something played in Centre and another speaker was silent) and converted to PCM came out of the correct speakers. On that basis I stayed with PCM because I could detect no other difference, and I tried several SACDs.

If you claimed a minor difference I could understand that you could hear it and I could not. But I find it hard to match your claimed huge difference with my own experience of no audible difference whatsoever.

 

[par4ken]

I did comparisons of my Oppo 95 converting to PCM vs playing DSD to the analogue multi channel inputs of my previous AV amp. I was never able to hear any difference, except that Tubular Bells played as DSD came out of the wrong speakers (something played in Centre and another speaker was silent) and converted to PCM came out of the correct speakers. On that basis I stayed with PCM because I could detect no other difference, and I tried several SACDs.

If you claimed a minor difference I could understand that you could hear it and I could not. But I find it hard to match your claimed huge difference with my own experience of no audible difference whatsoever.

Huge or slight is all relative. Others might think the difference is slight. I think that your amplifier and especially your speakers will make that difference huge, slight or inaudible. It is very audible on both of my main systems.

That is why I started a thread about the BDP-103, I was shocked at the difference in sound between native DSD and DSD converted to PCM. I did not expect it as I had previously bought into the opinion of the "experts" who suggested that there could be no difference!

To those who hear no difference, congratulations you can use the cheapest available equipment without any sonic penalty.

Native DSD playback keeps the assigned speaker placements no matter what your players mixdown settings are. I would argue it's more pure for that reason. I like to do any necessary mixdown in the analogue domain if possible.

 

[Carlthulhu]

The Oppo is capable of playing DSD natively.

Playing through my computer using Foobar whether the files pre converted to .flac or left as .dsf would all play back the same, no choice converted to PCM. I still like to keep them as .dsf so that they can play natively via the BDP-103. My BDP-95 on the other hand will not play .dsf from a thumb drive or network connection.

One issue that I haven’t figured out a way past is that when I play dsf files on any of my oppo devices including my bdp 203 and 205 is that they play back with track gaps, not continuously.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

One issue that I haven’t figured out a way past is that when I play dsf files on any of my oppo devices including my bdp 203 and 205 is that they play back with track gaps, not continuously.

Where are your audio tracks stored. And how are you accessing them?

 

[Owen Smith]

Native DSD playback keeps the assigned speaker placements no matter what your players mixdown settings are. I would argue it's more pure for that reason. I like to do any necessary mixdown in the analogue domain if possible.

Except when DSD plays Tubular Bells SACD out of the wrong speakers! I later found that only happened after using the Oppo Superdisc to make the player DVD region free, or when using a hardware multi region mod. On a stock factory 95 it plays out of the correct speakers in DSD. It's a mystery how something intended to only make the player DVD region free causes one SACD to come out of the correct speakers.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Except when DSD plays Tubular Bells SACD out of the wrong speakers! I later found that only happened after using the Oppo Superdisc to make the player DVD region free, or when using a hardware multi region mod. On a stock factory 95 it plays out of the correct speakers in DSD. It's a mystery how something intended to only make the player DVD region free causes one SACD to come out of the correct speakers.

How bizarre... I take it the issue was was eventually resolved after being reported by all those affected!

 

[Carlthulhu]

Where are your audio tracks stored. And how are you accessing them?

I have dsf files on a windows pc in a shared folder. And access them via the oppo remote control by browsing to the folder on the network. They sound great and play fine without having to convert them to PCM, but oppo didn’t perfect gapless playback before they went out of the blu ray player business.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I have dsf files on a windows pc in a shared folder. And access them via the oppo remote control by browsing to the folder on the network. They sound great and play fine without having to convert them to PCM, but oppo didn’t perfect gapless playback before they went out of the blu ray player business.

Are you aware that gapless playback is only supported by the OPPO if the audio files are accessed using SMB or NFS file shares, not DLNA/UPnP file shares? Gapless playback is also supported if audio files are accessed via USB connected HDD's.