Playback DSD (natively) with a PC

[Sal1950]

My current PC is the best and most powerful that I have ever owned but it won't do Windows 11

By the way, if it is a fairly recent PC, Windoz changed the rule on
upgrades from 10 and allows many to be upgraded.
Not that I recommend it, I run Linux.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

There's nothing new in Bob Katz' nice and brief video but it deserves to be heard and understood by anyone who does not already know these things.

Agreed. And I've known this all my adult audio life. But I have never set levels with a voltmeter. I have always used ears and pink noise. Do you use a voltmeter when testing Kal?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Agreed. And I've known this all my adult audio life. But I have never set levels with a voltmeter. I have always used ears and pink noise. Do you use a voltmeter when testing Kal?

I do because I do a lot of A/B switching. Since our sensory systems are designed to detect contrast, we need clean and fast A/B switching to hear what is happening at the transitions.

 

[ssully]

I would have said If you have the money then go for it. It might/should make a difference. With high end audio you have to spend enormous sums of money to get even slightly better quality.

which isn't true, at all, but even presuming it was...the increment in audible quality is never actually verified, 99.9% of the time, even at the level of simple difference.

Of course, it’s possible to hear things you can’t measure, and measure things you can’t hear. Our measurement technology is not perfect, and neither are anyone’s ears.

What exactly are the things we can hear that have no connection to any measured parameter?

 

[ssully]

This is why qualifications are always asked for in these discussions. A shootout between different analog devices - like comparing the outputs from two different DA converters - is actually a pretty brutal critical thing to set up! There's no "close enough" that wouldn't completely invalidate the test. So it's inevitable that someone will ask about the setup if an A/B shootout between actual AD converters is mentioned.

You also really need silent and lag free A/B switching. This can be tricky enough with your favorite DAW when just doing a media file shootout on the same system! (Do the solo buttons click/glitch? Crap! Let's try the mute buttons then. Can I group the two tracks to get a single button push for that? And so forth...)

You need fast switching to make a listening test as discriminating as possible.

But you don't actually need it, when the audiophile already claims he hears the difference, using his normal mode of 'switching'. Just let him do the same switching...but blind. Don't let him change anything else.

There is a constant confusion in audio circles between what is required to conduct a rigorous scientific test of a concept, versus the minimal requirement to test a particular audiophile's hearing claim, i.e., testing their anecdote using them as the subject.

*Blinding* is the one essential component for testing that.

Everything else is actually done to enhance the subject's chance of hearing a true difference, beyond what the subject normally does.

 

[Scytales]

I'd be interested to know what devices people are using to decode 'multi-channel' DSD audio streams. Are there any AVR's that can do this via a network connection?

The Topping DM7 seems to be a good candidate : it is specified to accept up to 8 channels of DSD64 and DSD128 or DSD64 over DoP through its USB input.

 

[Sal1950]

What exactly are the things we can hear that have no connection to any measured parameter?

Easy, BS. LOL

 

[jimfisheye]

Hahaha! Brilliant trick question!

 

[jimfisheye]

What exactly are the things we can hear that have no connection to any measured parameter?

The eq setting I thought I was A/B'ing when I had the eq bypassed the whole time!

 

[barfle]

What exactly are the things we can hear that have no connection to any measured parameter?

If I knew that, perhaps I could develop a way to measure it. And, as I specifically stated, neither ears nor instruments are perfect.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sadly, this topic like many others on the forum has descended (been contaminated) into a comparative audio discussion!

Surely there's a dedicated topic where such posts can be merged into?! And if not. Why not?

 

[mkt]

It is a rule of the internet that all DSD threads go off the rails eventually.

 

[ssully]

If I knew that, perhaps I could develop a way to measure it. And, as I specifically stated, neither ears nor instruments are perfect.

Wait, you know there's 'something' missing, but you can't define it? Leaving aside what you mean by 'perfect'.

For some classes of audio gear , like DACs, there are no more parameters to measure that mean anything. For electroacoustic devices (mics and speakers) , and room acoustics, , things are not as cut and dried -- but science is aware of the ways these things fail to be audibly perfect reproducers of what they are input.

 

[mandrix]

I'm really surprised that, given how far Video cards have advanced that they can't pass a DSD stream to an AVR via HDMI.
I suppose AMD/Nvidia don't consider that a priority. I assume no games have such audio and most high end cards cater more to gamers. Too bad, considering gpu's these days have incredible processing power compared to even a few years ago.
I'm not a gamer, have no interest in such but I guess the market isn't there for DSD capable gpu's. That mobo manufacturers don't see a need either is pretty much the same.

Since my pc IS my primary music playback equipment, I've found in this regard no difference in quality in bitstreaming audio from either my mobo's HDMI or my Nvidia card.

However one listens to music and is happy with it, I'm good. If you think A sounds better and I think B, no problem for me.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I'm really surprised that, given how far Video cards have advanced that they can't pass a DSD stream to an AVR via HDMI.

I agree. I'm also surprised that nobody has developed some hacked drivers!

That being said... I do seem to remember seeing a video at an exhibition stand where somebody was showing off a prototype PC that was capable of passing DSD via HDMI.

 

[barfle]

Wait, you know there's 'something' missing, but you can't define it? Leaving aside what you mean by 'perfect'.

For some classes of audio gear , like DACs, there are no more parameters to measure that mean anything. For electroacoustic devices (mics and speakers) , and room acoustics, , things are not as cut and dried -- but science is aware of the ways these things fail to be audibly perfect reproducers of what they are input.

So I guess you feel that measurement science is complete, and the patent office is obsolete. That idea is at least 150 years old, and it’s as untrue today as it was then.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm really surprised that, given how far Video cards have advanced that they can't pass a DSD stream to an AVR via HDMI.

Is that the case there, I didn't know.
I do know when I play DSF files on my computer they go out as PCM over HDMI.
I'm not sure where the conversion is actually handled. ???

So I guess you feel that measurement science is complete, and the patent office is obsolete. That idea is at least 150 years old, and it’s as untrue today as it was then.

There isn't any unknown magic in audio, digital sources and the electronic reproduction chain has been understood and can be 100% transparen, for decades. It's only in the beginning and ending transducers where things get smudged.

 

[mandrix]

Is that the case there, I didn't know.
I do know when I play DSF files on my computer they go out as PCM over HDMI.
I'm not sure where the conversion is actually handled. ???


There isn't any unknown magic in audio, digital sources and the electronic reproduction chain has been understood and can be 100% transparen, for decades. It's only in the beginning and ending transducers where things get smudged.

What app do you use? Whatever it is, it is converting to pcm before passing on.

 

[Sal1950]

Linux, remember.
The media player I use for DSD play is Cantata.
Cantata is an MPD client and I'm pretty sure the conversion
is going on in there.

 

[mandrix]

Linux, remember.
The media player I use for DSD play is Cantata.
Cantata is an MPD client and I'm pretty sure the conversion
is going on in there.

Makes no difference if it's Linux or Windows. It's already established that (AFAIK) a pc won't pass DSD over HDMI.