Playback DSD (natively) with a PC

[SeeMoreDigital]

Me no. I want to see if my OPPO can access and play .wv files.

Oh well that's the end of that... My OPPO can't access and play .wv files!

 

[ManWhoCan]

There's no inherent downside, however, some people want nice uniform library integration for usage with apps like Roon or Musicbee, which have extensive metadata abilities.

You can do as much, if not more, in Windows with Foobar than in Roon etc., to create 'a nice uniform library'.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

New thought...

Given the original subject of this particular topic and the sad fact that a computer is unable to output a native DSD stream via HDMI to an AVR. What's probably needed is a little black box device with a USB input and an HDMI output that's able create a viable DSD stream... If that makes sense!

 

[ManWhoCan]

New thought...

Given the original subject of this particular topic and the sad fact that a computer is unable to output a native DSD stream via HDMI to an AVR. What's probably needed is a little black box device with a USB input and an HDMI output that's able create a viable DSD stream... If that makes sense!

If you are going to get a gaget to solve this problem then get a DSD capable USB DAC. Keep HDMI for other uses.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

If you are going to get a gaget to solve this problem then get a DSD capable USB DAC. Keep HDMI for other uses.

Personally speaking I'm happy with my set-up but that's not the subject of this topic...

Many PC users on the forum want to be able to send native dsd bitreams to their AVR's.

 

[ManWhoCan]

Personally speaking I'm happy with my set-up but that's not the subject of this topic...

Many PC users on the forum want to be able to send native dsd bitreams to their AVR's.

Then why can't they simply use a DSD DAC to convert the DSD and send the analogue signal to their AVRs?

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Then why can't they simply use a DSD DAC to convert the DSD and send the analogue signal to their AVRs...

Because many modern AVR's do not offer multi-channel analogue audio inputs. But they do however offer onboard dsd decoding via HDMI.

 

[ManWhoCan]

Because many modern AVR's do not offer multi-channel analogue audio inputs. But they do however offer onboard dsd decoding via HDMI.

So the problem is with modern AVRs.

 

[Sal1950]

But they do however offer onboard dsd decoding via HDMI.

??? That's not my understanding, the problem lies with HDMI.

 

[Owen Smith]

Simple, Because I can't get it to my AVR over HDMI.

I used to think the fact my Arcam AVR31 can accept DSD (multi channel or stereo) over HDMI was nothing unusual and a standard feature these days. I've come to realise that isn't the case.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I'm not an expert on the technology, my best sources said the HDMI spec was never written to include DSD and the needed "drivers" were never developed if it was even possible.

I just joined this thread but the HDMI spec has included DSD since version 1.2 and this is confirmed by the ability of disc players to output DSD to AVRs and prepros. AFAIK, the issue is that the feature set for HDMI output from computers does not include DSD. Probably the fault of the manufacturers of the HDMI hardware components in these devices.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I just joined this thread but the HDMI spec has included DSD since version 1.2 and this is confirmed by the ability of disc players to output DSD to AVRs and prepros. AFAIK, the issue is that the feature set for HDMI output from computers does not include DSD. Probably the fault of the manufacturers of the HDMI hardware components in these devices.

A few years ago when I was beta testing software media players, I sent emails to ATI and nVidia asking them why it wasn't possible to pass dsd audio via the HDMI ports on their video cards. Sadly I never received a response!

 

[Sal1950]

I just joined this thread but the HDMI spec has included DSD since version 1.2 and this is confirmed by the ability of disc players to output DSD to AVRs and prepros. AFAIK, the issue is that the feature set for HDMI output from computers does not include DSD. Probably the fault of the manufacturers of the HDMI hardware components in these devices.

I'll take your word for it Kal.
In any case it just don't work. LOL

 

[zdjh22]

I just joined this thread but the HDMI spec has included DSD since version 1.2 and this is confirmed by the ability of disc players to output DSD to AVRs and prepros. AFAIK, the issue is that the feature set for HDMI output from computers does not include DSD. Probably the fault of the manufacturers of the HDMI hardware components in these devices.

Indeed.

I took a long journey down this particular rabbit hole about 9 months ago. I was playing SACDs from an old Sony UDP that I had bought used for ripping (prior to resurrecting my old PS3 for ripping, which ended up requiring a replacement laser but is more stable for that task). My AVR supported native DSD, and so happily took via HDMI the DSD bitstreams from the UDP. But I had the ISO rips and dammit, why can’t I send the native DSD from a computer?

The lore was that Intel, ATI, and NVIDIA (I don’t know of other mainstream video cards for PCs that support HDMI, but if there are, those manufacturers too) honored Sony/Phillips restrictions that only a certified SACD player could send native DSD bitstream over HDMI. Ah, but I know and love Linux, let’s take a look at the source. And indeed, down in the kernel source code for HDMI support you’ll find evidence of DSD streaming support - passthru - according to the specs. But, it’s only stubs, pointers in data structures named such that I know that’s where streaming DSD support would go, but there’s no actual code.

Bummer. But then I stumbled on specs for the Zidoo Neo Alpha media player, which supports native DSD streaming over HDMI. This is an Android-flavor device, so it runs an Android-flavor Linux kernel and so if the GPL is followed and binary “blobs” aren’t used, one should be able to find that code. Sadly, even though Zidoo posts some GPL source code, they don’t post their kernel (which could be for a number of legitimate reasons).

I ended up discovering Oppos and more importantly, Oppo clones, which can stream native DSD (with the right firmware) to my AVR. My ISOs are served via NFS from my NAS, and I gave up on the PC quest.

I’ll note that Oppos and Oppo clones use a Mediatek SOC (ARM-based) running Linux, and one can telnet (or ssh with a firmware change) into the Linux system running there and poke around and try to reverse engineer stuff. And Zidoo players use a Realtek ARM chipset running Android Linux, so likewise. If there’s a will there’s a way to port that native DSD HDMI streaming support, but I now lack the will .

 

[Sal1950]

If there’s a will there’s a way to port that native DSD HDMI streaming support, but I now lack the will .

Thanks for the great info!

 

[zdjh22]

Thanks for the great info!

You are welcome.

I suspect the best way to crack this is via one of the many ARM-based single board computers (Rasperry Pi or the like). They all have HDMI output, and they all have readily modified drivers (for video/audio, usually the GPUs are closed source and supported via blobs). That is what I was trying with a RockPi. The tricky part is getting handshaking working with the AVR, with HDCP and other issues lurking. Plus the AVR has to believe the computer is a proper SACD player. So not only does one have to implement the 1.2 spec on the player side, reverse engineering of the AVR side is necessary too, and I’ve not seen any sign of folks looking there. Zidoo no doubt has executed the necessary business procedures for their player to be recognized by AVRs.

Ironically most of the time my Oppo now has SACD playback switched to PCM mode (that is, the Oppo converts DSD to PCM). That’s because I traded my youngest (not really) for a Realiser A16 and do most of my MCH listening on headphones. Even though A16s do all sorts of magic - unbelievable magic - the HDMI input module only supports non-DST-compressed native DSD, so stereo only, and the Smyth’s haven’t enabled even the stereo native DSD input.

 

[mandrix]

Yep. Good old Sony. Gives the gifts that just keep on giving.
Seems I saw that same rumor (unconfirmed by me) that Sony is behind no DSD output from a pc.
Like Kal said, the tech has been there a long time. But Sony I'm thinking is trying to head off any more SACD ripping, at least via strictly through a pc.
Conjecture maybe, but would not surprise me.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

But Sony I'm thinking is trying to head off any more SACD ripping, at least via strictly through a pc.
Conjecture maybe, but would not surprise me.

Somehow that conjures memory of Shelley's Ozymandias.

 

[mandrix]

Somehow that conjures memory of Shelley's Ozymandias.

I get your drift I think. Sony will not hold the cards forever.

 

[par4ken]

The premise of this thread is "is it worth the trouble". That to many of us means either yes (DSD sounds best as DSD) or no (no difference in sound converted to PCM, so why bother).

The more interesting aspect obviously is how it can be accomplished. If that is the sole aim of the thread then it should be titled how to playback DSD (natively) with a PC.