Porcupine Tree 5.1 remasters - Deadwing / In Absentia - getting nearer?

[edisonbaggins]

I don't have the blu-ray, but on the DVD-A I inverted the center channel a while back but left the LFE alone. I just now went back and applied a -10ms cut to the LFE channel and here are the before and after (LFE is 4th from top)

LFE as is:
View attachment 46814

LFE -10ms cut:
View attachment 46815

a) What is the reasoning here, Froggy?
b) Those pics look the same to me!

 

[4-earredwonder]

It is...

Sorry to be somewhat redundant but that center channel seems to be the 'bane' of more than a few 5.1 reissues. To reiterate, neither Scheiner nor even Steve Wilson feel a need for the center FOR MUSIC ONLY DISCS. And after hearing over a 100+ 70's QUAD reissues from D~V, I'd concur that the PHANTOM CENTER is more than adequate [even preferable] to that center speaker for MUSIC!

 

[edisonbaggins]

It seems to me that surround releases suffer from more than their fair share of "mastering" goof ups.

 

[sjcorne]

To reiterate, neither Scheiner nor even Steve Wilson feel a need for the center FOR MUSIC ONLY DISCS

You're joking, right? No one uses the discrete center channel more than Wilson for 5.1 music mixing. It's kind of his trademark.

 

[4-earredwonder]

It seems to me that surround releases suffer from more than their fair share of "mastering" goof ups.

No, S++T, Sherlock. Amazing since in the grand scheme of things SO FEW albums are released in surround. Quality Control, even on pricey box sets, seems non~existent.....and disc failure is rampant! But over the years after being an avid QQ follower, the center channel seems to have suffered the most ....too loud, too soft, out of phase or non~existent use of the center on supposedly 5.1 remixes.

Maybe those QUAD GODS of the 70's had it right and should be a blue print even for modern surround remixers. Less is sometimes MORE and NO complaints here from utilizing fewer channels to create immense soundscapes that the 70's remixers seemed to have mastered .... in SPADES!

 

[4-earredwonder]

You're joking, right? No one uses the discrete center channel more than Wilson for 5.1 music mixing. It's kind of his trademark.

I wish I could find that article Jonathan in which Wilson did state that. Amazing, how the Jethro Tull THIS WAS SW 4.0 remix certainly didn't suffer for lack of a center channel?

 

[marpow]

So happy I didn't bite on the new In Absentia, based on all this chatter.
When I buy music I do not expect or want to have to fuck around with it and change it. My purchase should be all that is necessary, that said I have also been apart of returning discs, glad I don't have to for this.
My original DVD is good enough. I did however purchase the 2020 stereo from HDTracks and quite happy with that.

 

[4-earredwonder]

So happy I didn't bite on the new In Absentia, based on all this chatter.
When I buy music I do not expect or want to have to fuck around with it and change it. My purchase should be all that is necessary, that said I have also been apart of returning discs, glad I don't have to for this.
My original DVD is good enough. I did however purchase the 2020 stereo from HDTracks and quite happy with that.

Am in TOTAL AGREEMENT with you, Markie. One should NOT have to fiddle with the controls to enable a surround disc to sound optimal. To me, it would be akin to having to adjust the color or contrast controls when viewing a Blu ray or UHD 4K disc. SHOULD NOT BE AN ISSUE IF THE RELEASING COMPANY DID THEIR HOMEWORK IN THE QUALITY CONTROL DEPARTMENT.

 

[marpow]

Am in TOTAL AGREEMENT with you, Markie. One should NOT have to fiddle with the controls to enable a surround disc to sound optimal. To me, it would be akin to having to adjust the color or contrast controls when viewing a Blu ray or UHD 4K disc. SHOULD NOT BE AN ISSUE IF THE RELEASING COMPANY DID THEIR HOMEWORK IN THE QUALITY CONTROL DEPARTMENT.

Yeah, when I buy a refrigerator, car, home music system, etc, I don't expect to rebuild others flaws.

 

[Simon_LDT]

I'm really not sure what it is with this particular album and mix (5.1) but there is just something not right and hasn't from the very beginning. The Center being inverted is one thing but the whole LFE issue is just bizarre. Some say it's inverted also, some say it isn't and then Plan9 mentioned it is only some tracks. The whole 10ms delay thing is bizarre also.

There is definitely something funky going on here and it's just so strange. I run a 5.0 so I route the LFE to the fronts (set as large) and this mix has always sounded bass light to me, even way before it was ever brought up about the phase problem (I never knew the technical reasons as to why though but always put it down to the fact I had no sub).

Even after applying the center channel fix I still find it to be light on bass (not easy to hear a huge improvement), maybe the LFE is as Plan9 says and is inverted also on certain tracks?

If you ask me this album needs a complete overhaul as a surround mix (or at least going back to the original session mixes if they still exist). Maybe SW should have redone it himself from scratch or maybe ES could have taken another look to see what may have gone wrong in the chain (as the mix placement itself is absolutely fine - can't fault that).

Yep, what a mess.

 

[Frogmort]

a) What is the reasoning here, Froggy?
b) Those pics look the same to me!

If you look at the 4th one down (LFE) you will see that it is not perfectly lined up with the front and center channels. It's only off by 10ms, so not much. In the second pic it is aligned with the other channels. I just went through and checked and it is exactly the same on all tracks including the 3 bonus tracks. Look at the alignment of the 4th channel (LFE) at the very beginning of the bonus track 'Chloroform':

As is LFE:

 

[edisonbaggins]

If you look at the 4th one down (LFE) you will see that it is not perfectly lined up with the front and center channels. It's only off by 10ms, so not much. In the second pic it is aligned with the other channels. I just went through and checked and it is exactly the same on all tracks including the 3 bonus tracks. Look at the alignment of the 4th channel (LFE) at the very beginning of the bonus track 'Chloroform':

As is LFE:
View attachment 46820View attachment 46821

Does it help?

 

[Frogmort]

Does it help?

Having the center channel inverted and properly in phase with all the other speakers and the LFE properly time aligned with the other channels surely doesn't hurt! I haven't even listened to it all un-fiddled with yet honestly. Just playing around and looking at it while listening to 'The Incident' right now. Now, I did boost the hell out of the LFE channel just to make it very visible in those graphs, so you could see the LFE waveform compared to the other channels, as the LFE channel is pretty quiet overall.

 

[knifeman]

So happy I didn't bite on the new In Absentia, based on all this chatter.
When I buy music I do not expect or want to have to fuck around with it and change it. My purchase should be all that is necessary, that said I have also been apart of returning discs, glad I don't have to for this.
My original DVD is good enough. I did however purchase the 2020 stereo from HDTracks and quite happy with that.

Well put!!!!! I was so looking forward to this release, and now this. I really can't understand the lack of quality control in this industry. You only have to compile one disc and get it right before sending it to the manufacturer, and it still gets screwed up. And this is far from the first time. Mine's on it's way, but now I wish I would have held off. Honestly, I just feel like returning it and saying f*** it, replacement disc or not. And this is coming from a hardcore PT fanboy!

 

[Cyber 1]

So happy I didn't bite on the new In Absentia, based on all this chatter.

X2, really bad, makes one wonder about buying any 5.1 until proven to be a quality product, I'm still pissed about that Rush box

 

[Frogmort]

I listen to files, so it's easy to edit. All you have to do to fix the audio is invert the center channel and cut the LFE channel by 10ms. Matter o' fact, I'm gonna fix it tomorrow. NIN now.

 

[DaverJ]

You're joking, right? No one uses the discrete center channel more than Wilson for 5.1 music mixing. It's kind of his trademark.

Check SW's 5.1 mix of his Home Invasion concert on Blu-ray.... he barely touches the center channel, only for an occasional keyboard or bass part.

 

[skherbeck]

If you look at the 4th one down (LFE) you will see that it is not perfectly lined up with the front and center channels. It's only off by 10ms, so not much. In the second pic it is aligned with the other channels. I just went through and checked and it is exactly the same on all tracks including the 3 bonus tracks. Look at the alignment of the 4th channel (LFE) at the very beginning of the bonus track 'Chloroform':

As is LFE:
View attachment 46820View attachment 46821

I made all these changes a while back based on recommendations in another thread, and I'm perfectly happy with the results. If the mastering is the same on this new release, there's really no reason for me to replace my DVD-A.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I made all these changes a while back based on recommendations in another thread, and I'm perfectly happy with the results. If the mastering is the same on this new release, there's really no reason for me to replace my DVD-A.

Skherbeck, you can put that money towards the 25th Anniversary reissue of DEADWING in DOLBY FATMOS in 2030 when the whole wide world is OUT OF PHASE!

 

[gazzaworcs]

You're joking, right? No one uses the discrete center channel more than Wilson for 5.1 music mixing. It's kind of his trademark.

I agree, I have most of Wilson’s re mixes and his own work and for studio stuff he does generally place lead vocal in the centre. I find it very effective and adds to the discreteness of the overall mix. It is a bit of a trademark of his. I do have some very good quad mixes where the absence of the centre doesn’t really detract from a great mix. Parsons quad mix of DSOTM or all the new DV quad mixes for instance.