Prince "Purple Rain" Dolby Atmos Mix (Blu-ray Audio to be released later this year)

[key_wiz]

So if Rhino has a press release on this, does that mean they will be releasing/selling it? Or is this going to be specifically an SDE release?

Also, I doubt they'll do this, but I really hope they do a specific 5.1 surround mix, too. The fold-down sometimes can be a bit bland compared to a dedicated 5.1.

It will be a Rhino release, not a SDE exclusive.

I was hoping we’d be getting a 40th anniversary box set that included all the stuff not on the three disc version put out a few years ago, but there has been no mention of that. Not yet anyway.

 

[key_wiz]

IMO, Mr. E, only Lady Ga Ga and Zendaya have successfully crossed over from singing to acting careers. Madonna ..... YUK!

And of course, BABS [Streisand] in YENTL [LOL]!

I haven't seen the movie since it was at the theaters some 40 years ago, but I remember thinking Madonna was quite good in "Desperately Seeking Susan". But yes, she didn't successfully cross over as she followed that up with garbage performances.

Babs was great in "Meet the Fockers", I thought.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I haven't seen the movie since it was at the theaters some 40 years ago, but I remember thinking Madonna was quite good in "Desperately Seeking Susan".

I liked Who’s That Girl and Dick Tracy. But I was like, 10 years old?

 

[fourml8r]

listened to this via streaming last might. overall quite good. so much going on that the added channel separation really helped to bring out tracks / details that were lost in the 2 channel release. if this comes in at a reasonable price i would consider buying it.

 

[stoopid]

Also, I doubt they'll do this, but I really hope they do a specific 5.1 surround mix, too. The fold-down sometimes can be a bit bland compared to a dedicated 5.1.

Same, Pearl Jam's Dark Matter is only atmos and didn't fold down very cleanly to 5.1 [there were moments where I noticed guitar tracks were missing, likely in one of the ceiling/height channels]. Other atmos mixes I've tried fold down fine (or at least better) but they never sound as good as a dedicated 5.1 mix.

I feel like the industry is trying to drag everyone into atmos, when in reality it's never going to happen at the scale needed. Still more people have 5.1 availability (by a wide margin) and adding the extra speakers isn't a casual chore, in addition to any other equipment upgrades needed. So not inexpensive either. They tried the same with 3D movies IIRC, and that failed to gain traction.

 

[Dynamic Editor]

Same, Pearl Jam's Dark Matter is only atmos and didn't fold down very cleanly to 5.1 [there were moments where I noticed guitar tracks were missing, likely in one of the ceiling/height channels].

I'm honestly a bit confused. How does Atmos "fold down" work? (And before we get into an argument, yes, I understand it's not technically a fold down; I'm using that term in a colloquial sense.) I would think the elements from the heights would still be present in the lower speakers if the higher speakers weren't present.

 

[himey]

Other atmos mixes I've tried fold down fine (or at least better) but they never sound as good as a dedicated 5.1 mix.

Never? That isn't my experience.

 

[sjcorne]

there were moments where I noticed guitar tracks were missing, likely in one of the ceiling/height channels

Unlikely, because there are no guitar parts placed exclusively in the height speakers throughout that mix.

 

[key_wiz]

Unlikely, because there are no guitar parts placed exclusively in the height speakers throughout that mix.

I'm honestly a bit confused. How does Atmos "fold down" work? (And before we get into an argument, yes, I understand it's not technically a fold down; I'm using that term in a colloquial sense.) I would think the elements from the heights would still be present in the lower speakers if the higher speakers weren't present.

Playing the mix via 5.1, it's pretty clear this mix is a "new experience" in a lot of ways. I don't know exactly what happens in a "fold down". I am pretty sure, however, that the elements don't simply disappear. But I can imagine that there are instances where an element sent to height speaker might get buried when sent to another speaker. Something that is easy to hear clearly when separated but when just part the mix? Maybe not so much. And various systems and how they are set up would have a lot to do with this, of course.

This mix certainly has some "new" features to it. Parts I've never heard before, either because they weren't used in the original mix or they are just louder now, and other parts that I don't hear or are, at the very least, sound undermixed on my system.

 

[stoopid]

Playing the mix via 5.1, it's pretty clear this mix is a "new experience" in a lot of ways. I don't know exactly what happens in a "fold down". I am pretty sure, however, that the elements don't simply disappear. But I can imagine that there are instances where an element sent to height speaker might get buried when sent to another speaker. Something that is easy to hear clearly when separated but when just part the mix? Maybe not so much. And various systems and how they are set up would have a lot to do with this, of course.

This is a solid explanation. I haven't needed to dig into how my particular Sony bluray player and Sony 5.1 receiver are handling atmos mixes, the Pearl Jam album is the first that sounded particularly bad and if not missing, mixed down elements that are inaudible when 'folded down'.

The term is certainly colloquial, probably more accurate is 'merged down' or 'mixed in with the other channels'. I'm familiar with the PJ stereo mix enough to recognize when things aren't right. The other playback issue with that atmos in 5.1 is the drenched reverb. Every track sounds like it's in an echo chamber of various depths. I'll revisit the couple other atmos mixes I own and see how this setup is managing those, I recently got the Sony bluray and 5.1 receiver so it's possible none of my atmos discs will play right with this current configuration.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I wonder how AVR's such as the new Marantz Cinema 70s, which can be configured as either 7.2.0 or 5.2.2, is able to fold 7.2.4 Atmos down to 5.2.2...

 

[key_wiz]

I wonder about the remixing process for albums like this. Virtually every track on the album first existed in a longer version. In the case of “Let’s Go Crazy” and “Computer Blue”, Prince originally planned to include longer versions, but edited them at the last minute to make room for “Take Me With U”.

All those edits must have taken place after the multis were mixed to stereo. So to go back for a remix the engineer would have to recreate those edits. Which leads me to believe they must have made Atmos mixes of the full-length versions (or very easily could have).

So why not give us a true “expanded” version?

What if they offered those unreleased longer versions in Atmos only? Wouldn’t that be a selling point for the format?

I tell ya—Rhino needs to hire me for marketing

 

[RustyStatic]

This mix certainly has some "new" features to it. Parts I've never heard before, either because they weren't used in the original mix or they are just louder now, and other parts that I don't hear or are, at the very least, sound undermixed on my system.

Yeah... had a buddy (and fellow Prince completist) over on Sunday night to give a listen to one of our "sacred cows" in Atmos for the first time together. I might have been more baffled by this than any other release I've ever listened to, and I don't necessarily mean that in the negative.

Literally, I spent the entirety of the album with my mouth open wondering what I was listening to... my friend put it perfectly—"more than any other album we've ever listened to on your system, this immersive mix is making me question how well I actually know the original... and I've listened to it hundreds of times over the last 40 years."

I definitely need to listen to it again. Some things I thought for sure weren't in the original stereo, but then I listened to that in the car afterward and thought "eh, actually I guess that was in there and I just never focused on it." We certainly have an imprint in our brains of what we think is in the music that might actually not be fully accurate. But there are certainly some alternate takes/instruments present, there's a spoken word part somewhere that I'm forgetting now that definitely isn't on the stereo, some different approaches with reverb (or lack thereof), synths and strings being higher or lower in the mix... in general I walked away feeling like this was sort of an "alternate mix" approach, which I think is totally valid and one way to go... I just didn't walk away feeling it was the definitive version or necessarily had the vibe I'd want someone to get if they had never heard the album before and wanted to know why it was so groundbreaking and important. Just my personal opinion.

But my friend also said "knowing the way that Prince recorded, and how he would constantly make little edits and fly things in, etc., I bet this was sort of the way that Steven Wilson talked about having to reconstruct The Seeds of Love after the fact. Can you imagine what it must have been like to have to decipher what was on the original multitracks with little bits and bobs all over the place?" He also said "I feel like the original stereo had the guitar at a level in the mix where it smoothed it over a bit, it's so exposed in this mix that it takes a bit of the mystique off of his playing, if I'm being honest."

I did feel like the Atmos mix exposed some places where there were edits and things, like at one point there's a live drum beat going and then you clearly can tell Prince flew in a specific fill he wanted that was played on a drum machine, that was never clear to me before, etc. On the one hand it highlights what an idiosyncratic presence he was in the studio, and on the other it shows a bit more of the "warts". Again, all valid, just my experience.

At the end, all things considered, after a little break I'm kinda excited to go back and listen to it again, so that says something. But I also feel pretty strongly that at the end of the day, nobody can mix Prince like Prince. Mastering, etc., that's all fine... but when Prince was in the mixing chair... magic. But we no longer have The Purple Yoda, so if we're gonna get inside his music a bit more, we're going to have to hand the reins to someone else. At the end of the day, I'm glad we continue to get material from the estate, I'm glad they're embracing immersive mixing, and "I'm in". Thought I'd share my experience.

 

[key_wiz]

Yeah... had a buddy (and fellow Prince completist) over on Sunday night to give a listen to one of our "sacred cows" in Atmos for the first time together. I might have been more baffled by this than any other release I've ever listened to, and I don't necessarily mean that in the negative.

Literally, I spent the entirety of the album with my mouth open wondering what I was listening to... my friend put it perfectly—"more than any other album we've ever listened to on your system, this immersive mix is making me question how well I actually know the original... and I've listened to it hundreds of times over the last 40 years."

I definitely need to listen to it again. Some things I thought for sure weren't in the original stereo, but then I listened to that in the car afterward and thought "eh, actually I guess that was in there and I just never focused on it." We certainly have an imprint in our brains of what we think is in the music that might actually not be fully accurate. But there are certainly some alternate takes/instruments present, there's a spoken word part somewhere that I'm forgetting now that definitely isn't on the stereo, some different approaches with reverb (or lack thereof), synths and strings being higher or lower in the mix... in general I walked away feeling like this was sort of an "alternate mix" approach, which I think is totally valid and one way to go... I just didn't walk away feeling it was the definitive version or necessarily had the vibe I'd want someone to get if they had never heard the album before and wanted to know why it was so groundbreaking and important. Just my personal opinion.

But my friend also said "knowing the way that Prince recorded, and how he would constantly make little edits and fly things in, etc., I bet this was sort of the way that Steven Wilson talked about having to reconstruct The Seeds of Love after the fact. Can you imagine what it must have been like to have to decipher what was on the original multitracks with little bits and bobs all over the place?" He also said "I feel like the original stereo had the guitar at a level in the mix where it smoothed it over a bit, it's so exposed in this mix that it takes a bit of the mystique off of his playing, if I'm being honest."

I did feel like the Atmos mix exposed some places where there were edits and things, like at one point there's a live drum beat going and then you clearly can tell Prince flew in a specific fill he wanted that was played on a drum machine, that was never clear to me before, etc. On the one hand it highlights what an idiosyncratic presence he was in the studio, and on the other it shows a bit more of the "warts". Again, all valid, just my experience.

At the end, all things considered, after a little break I'm kinda excited to go back and listen to it again, so that says something. But I also feel pretty strongly that at the end of the day, nobody can mix Prince like Prince. Mastering, etc., that's all fine... but when Prince was in the mixing chair... magic. But we no longer have The Purple Yoda, so if we're gonna get inside his music a bit more, we're going to have to hand the reins to someone. At the end of the day, 'm glad we continue to get material from the estate, I'm glad they're embracing immersive mixing, and "I'm in". Thought I'd share my experience.

It’s gotten better on repeated listenings for me. The biggest issue (for me) is the volume differences between tracks is immense on Tidal. Listening to it again with my thumb on the volume knob and knowing what to expect and it sounds much better.

There are definitely differences in the mix, but not as much as in, say, the 5.1 of “Tusk”. I don’t think there are any alternate takes used but yes, certainly things that were pulled back in the mix originally that are much more prominent now. Personally, these things don’t bother me. In fact, in most cases I rather enjoy them as, like your friend, I’ve played this album hundreds of times over the decades and, as such, it’s the Prince album I’ve played the least since the 80s. Now it sounds fresh to me again.

Spot on about the guitar playing. I’m hearing little licks I never noticed before. It does sound more “exposed”. But again, a fresh take. We will still always have the original stereo.

I know Chris James is the guy Prince trusted most at the end of his life to be his engineer and I’m sure he’s as familiar with “Purple Rain” as any of us. At the same time, he was only 10 when the album was released. I wonder if he consulted Susan Rogers or anyone else who might have been there at the time about how the mix was made? Because yes, Prince notoriously was constantly making changes up to the last minute. I’ve often read (I think from Susan) that any Prince album is just how it happened to sound THAT DAY. That had he turned in the mixes a week earlier or later it might be an entirely different album.

 

[Thonolan]

It’s gotten better on repeated listenings for me. The biggest issue (for me) is the volume differences between tracks is immense on Tidal. Listening to it again with my thumb on the volume knob and knowing what to expect and it sounds much better.

Do you have volume normalization turned on? It's an option on Tidal, and in theory it should work here.

 

[key_wiz]

Do you have volume normalization turned on? It's an option on Tidal, and in theory it should work here.

I didn't realize they had that. I hope it does work.

Does it deal with the volume differences between Atmos and stereo mixes? My understanding is that there is something inherent about Atmos mixes that they need to necessarily be much quieter. And I have no problem with that and cranking it up for Atmos -- EXCEPT that after I play any album, Tidal automatically starts playing some random track it 'thinks' I will like in stereo and I'm running for the volume control.

Another quirk with this album that I mentioned before (maybe here, maybe another thread) is that the segue between "Computer Blue" and "Darling Nikki" is in the wrong spot (it's off by maybe a second) and as such isn't smooth. I trust that is simply the result of where the Tidal app decides to switch from one track to the next and won't sound that way on the BluRay.

It's certainly not the biggest deal in the history of recorded music or anything, but it's a segue I've always appreciated (especially since it is one I've manually recreated myself several times making my own version of "Purple Rain" using the longer "Computer Blue") and that it doesn't sound smooth is a bit jarring to me.

 

[Thonolan]

Does it deal with the volume differences between Atmos and stereo mixes? My understanding is that there is something inherent about Atmos mixes that they need to necessarily be much quieter. And I have no problem with that and cranking it up for Atmos -- EXCEPT that after I play any album, Tidal automatically starts playing some random track it 'thinks' I will like in stereo and I'm running for the volume control.

I guess it should deal with that volume difference just as any other, but note that you can also turn off the option of Tidal automatically starting playing random tracks after finishing a given album. I always have it turned off.

And yes, as far as I know that's true about Atmos. I think Dolby settled a loudness limit for the Atmos mixes, which, if I understood it well, it's great news, as it guarantees that no Atmos mix will ever be awfully brickwalled.

 

[alek2702]

The volume differences stem from the Dolby 'dialnorm' parameter not set consistently across albums.
Purple Rain is especially bad in this regard as there's 13dB differences between some tracks.

The problem is as old as Tidal Atmos streaming I'm afraid, so don't count on them to fix it at this point.

Some AVRs are able to ignore the dialnorm setting, otherwise you'd have to rip the tracks off Tidal and decode them and compensate the volume differences by applying gain on a track by track basis.

 

[key_wiz]

The volume differences stem from the Dolby 'dialnorm' parameter not set consistently across albums.
Purple Rain is especially bad in this regard as there's 13dB differences between some tracks.

The problem is as old as Tidal Atmos streaming I'm afraid, so don't count on them to fix it at this point.

Some AVRs are able to ignore the dialnorm setting, otherwise you'd have to rip the tracks off Tidal and decode them and compensate the volume differences by applying gain on a track by track basis.

It's possible to rip tracks off of Tidal?

 

[JediJoker]

It's possible to rip tracks off of Tidal?

Not legally or easily.