PS Audio - Surround Sound not more popular with Audiophiles?

[par4ken]

It just so happens that KGRN is broadcasting in C-QUAM AM stereo!

Sorry to be veering off from the original thread title but nice to hear that AM stereo still exists somewhere! I remember when it all began and almost every music programmed AM station boasted broadcasting in AM stereo. The problem was that nobody had an AM stereo radio. So at first AM stereo was just advertising hype!

At some point I did get myself a used Plymouth Voyager van with AM stereo. I thought that it functioned and sounded great, they took care with those receivers to get the best sound possible from AM. When I got rid of the van I lamented that I didn't keep the radio, by that time AM stereo was disappearing from new vehicles.

Years later I picked up a used Sony AM stereo tuner from eBay. Sadly by that time almost all the AM stereo stations had disappeared. In Canada most AM station were "flipping" over to the FM band. Those stations remaining were mostly non music formats like talk, news and sports. The odd music station remained but without stereo.

I remember working late at night while listening to AM radio, one stereo music station was on the extended portion of the AM band. It was KCJJ Iowa City. My vehicle radio did not have AM stereo. The rest of the AM band was mostly filled with the same syndicated Coast to Coast AM show! No music to be had anywhere, not even on "The Big 89".

At home the Sony tuner that I had did not tune the "extended band", so no KCJJ there either! So you see the "stereo gods" must have been dead set against AM radio!

There is a direct parallel between AM stereo and Quad in how they were each developed, marketed and then abandoned.

 

[MidiMagic]

I think they avoid surround sound because they don't think having sounds come from anywhere but up front is not realistic. You only have two ears. That's the worst excuse in the book. I have friends who have two-channel systems that cost more than my house, and that's what they say. I counter them by reminding them of the ambience of a well-designed concert hall. It comes at you from all sides. With more intimate jazz recordings, they say the different parts that are placed in different speakers is unnatural. My response is that it lets you hear each of these parts with more clarity than if it were all coming from just two speakers. It's like they're playing just to you, in your listening room. I don't see why they just don't get that! When I worked in high end, the owner of the store was very pro-surround. He couldn't get the point across to them, either.

Interesting that my original reason for wanting surround sound was concert hall ambiance, but the first surround sound recording I created was sound effects coming from all directions (for a stage play).

 

[MidiMagic]

I am in transition right now.

I am in the process of designing a sound room prior to moving, and have only one quad system running right now (the FM radio in the kitchen on a speaker matrix set for DS). I am hoping to have a much better system when I finish.

One of the things I have enjoyed when playing records in quad is a "you are there" feeling. I have quite a few records (some are labelled stereo) that produce this effect. I have also made some recordings that do this.

 

[jaybird100]

Yes, I didn't hear any ID that they were stereo, when I visit IA again, I'll probably take my Sony SRF-42 AM stereo radio and stop in Grinnell and listen to their AM stereo signal for a while.

(of course, being stereo, they could also broadcast in matrix quad...just to try to tie it in to QQ... )


Kirk Bayne

I worked on an AM stereo station back in the 80's, and I did play some tracks from both SQ and QS records that fit the format (oldies). I was recording it off the air, and when I played the tape back through a quad decoder, it gave me quad! So, yes, AM quad happened!!!

 

[mister_eff]

Thanks for this thread. I run into this all the time on reddit's /r/audiophile subreddit! I absolutely agree that the real world is in surround sound, concert halls and such have reverb/ambiance, etc. So many audiophiles are not only not interested in surround sound, they're completely dismissive of it. It's absolutely bonkers to me.

 

[newslane]

Or as someone once said, music enthusiasts use their equipment to listen to your music; audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment.

A friend of mine had 500 wpc McIntosh amps driving a $25,000 pair of speakers. To demonstrate what his equipment could do, he played a lot of unfamiliar music. It sounded extremely impressive.

Then he put on an HD tracks version of The Eagles song Hotel California. We didn't think it sounded all that great, especially compared to the 5.1 version he heard on my system. The lesson being that endlessly pouring money into two channel equipment can only get you so far.

I agree with this completely. Diminishing return on expenditure happens more quickly than many realize.

 

[newslane]

I like to chime into these discussions to mention the wonders of sonic holography. It's simply amazing when set up correctly, and accurately reproduces what the mixing team created in the entire stereo soundfield, not just right and left channels.

 

[ar surround]

One of the things I have enjoyed when playing records in quad is a "you are there" feeling. I have quite a few records (some are labelled stereo) that produce this effect. I have also made some recordings that do this.

Yes! The "you are there" feeling really comes across with the quad mixes. That feeling does not come across with a lot of 5.1, and especially Atmos recordings.

 

[izgoblin]

I have an audiophile buddy who loves PS Audio. He hasn't bothered with surround sound for many years.

When I set up a 5.1 system downstairs (separate to my primary more audiophile stereo system), I asked him why he doesn't do surround anymore. His response made perfect sense to me. To get the quality of reproduction he gets from his stereo system, he'd need a LOT more money to bring that into surround. Additionally, if your system is good enough and you have a little "help" with a certain substance, you'll actually get a similar effect. I've experienced it myself where the music pops into the room and even completely sounds like the instruments and amps are right there in my listening room. I completely understand his point.

Not to mention that the mastering on a lot of surround releases (Steven Wilson mixes notwithstanding) can leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't see why they just don't get that! When I worked in high end, the owner of the store was very pro-surround. He couldn't get the point across to them, either.

Because they've been brainwashed and drank all the kool-aid that's laid out by the "high end" media.
From $10,000 power cords on forward they believe all the BS they get shoveled. J. Gordon Holt tried to pull them out of the dark side but they're all too lost in their religion to close their eyes and open their ears.

 

[mandrix]

I was an early Quad devotee. It just made perfect sense to me before I ever even heard it.
By 1974 I had my "final" system after buying/trading/selling various Receivers & speakers.
Finally ended up with what I believe was the Kenwood KR-9940, Thorenz TT, 4 x Infiniti 1001 speakers, Q8 player, some other odds and ends.

I got into Atmos almost by accident, as I had a 5.1.2 capable AVR and was curious what it would sound like if I hung two speakers from the walls.
Eventually went to 7.1.4 but now 5.1.4, mostly due to room size/layout.
I live on a modest retirement income, but of course I always lust for better speakers. But I'm satisfied with what I have set up within my means.

 

[Sal1950]

Fidelity before more channels though 100%!

Absolutely, but the good news here is that except for speakers, audio has been a solved problem for a few decades now. All but the worst DAC's, AVR's preamps, amps, etc are capable of passing a mostly fully transparent signal. Our biggest hurtles remain the speakers and the room interface, of which DRC can help tremendously.

When I set up a 5.1 system downstairs (separate to my primary more audiophile stereo system), I asked him why he doesn't do surround anymore.

Not to criticize but I went the 2 system route for many years.
After being forced due to retirement home size to go with a single rig I realized your much better off putting all that 2ch money into one multich system with the best speakers that will afford you.
JMHO

 

[Sal1950]

I thought I belonged in that group until I got to your last statement. I guess not.

There's a lot to what they say there Kal. If all the listener is interested in is the old open window to the concert hall paradigm, there's a lot that can be done with 2ch's only. Or even adding an inexpensive ambiance bandaid from things like Logic 7, to BACCH can go along way to emulate the concert hall experience.

OTOH, there is a (not so) new paradigm for recorded music, the one that puts the performers all around you. Whether done with quad, 5.1, Atmos, whatever, it's a creative change that the listener either has to accept or not. The "2ch forever" crowd just dismisses it as gimmicky and they may forever be closed minded to this change. But I've found when I've sat some friends down an played something really creative (Yello-Point?) to them the response was WOW, that's incredible.
Some painters back in the 15th century got the idea.

 

[4-earredwonder]

There's a lot to what they say there Kal. If all the listener is interested in is the old open window to the concert hall paradigm, there's a lot that can be done with 2ch's only. Or even adding an inexpensive ambiance bandaid from things like Logic 7, to BACCH can go along way to emulate the concert hall experience.

OTOH, there is a (not so) new paradigm for recorded music, the one that puts the performers all around you. Whether done with quad, 5.1, Atmos, whatever, it's a creative change that the listener either has to accept or not. The "2ch forever" crowd just dismisses it as gimmicky and they may forever be closed minded to this change. But I've found when I've sat some friends down an played something really creative (Yello-Point?) to them the response was WOW, that's incredible.
Some painters back in the 15th century got the idea.

View attachment 111695

Sal, speaking of Gothic Like interiors, I cannot wait until RHINO releases Beaver and Krause's GANDHARVA in 2025 [as foraging rhino promised] as it was recorded QUADRAPHONICALLY in the magnificent acoustics of San Francisco's Grace Cathedral with the musicians [Bud Shank and Gerry Mulligan among them] roaming freely throughout the space playing their instruments. It was only released in a matrix quad configuration [EV/QS] upon release but accessing the original QUAD master tapes should even 'twist' the minds of dedicated stereo aficionados! Beaver and Krause's ALL GOOD MEN will also be included in a two~fer package with Gandharva!

BEAVER & KRAUSE -
All Good Men. Warner Brothers BS-2624 (EV) [US & Australia]]
Gandharva. Warner Bros. WS-1909 (EV) [US, Canada, Venezuela], QP-8177W
(QS) [Japan], K 46130 (EV) [UK]
{The titles above where released only in quad, no stereo version known}

Grace Cathedral San Francisco, CA

 

[Sal1950]

I cannot wait until RHINO releases Beaver and Krause's GANDHARVA in 2025 [as foraging rhino promised] as it was recorded QUADRAPHONICALLY in the magnificent acoustics of San Francisco's Grace Cathedral with the musicians [Bud Shank and Gerry Mulligan among them] roaming freely throughout the space playing their instruments.

That sounds awesome, I need to check out a copy when available.
Thanks, Sal

 

[jimfisheye]

Yes! The "you are there" feeling really comes across with the quad mixes. That feeling does not come across with a lot of 5.1, and especially Atmos recordings.

How on Earth could adding a center channel or overhead channels collapse a "you are there" mix?! That has to be a critique of a specific 5.1 mix or 7.1.4 mix vs another specific 4.0 mix. We can find plenty of examples the other way around too.

It's all in the mix!

So what happened in this specific example? Something way too loud in the center channel that just distracted?

There are some really 'phoned in' 5.1 mixes out there for sure. Novelty stuff for DVD discs where those involved clearly never heard surround music mixes before and were confused. Or whatever the heck happened with those! That's what it sounds like. Those circa 2000s DVDA discs with the cursory 5.1 remix that paled next to the original 4.0 and not including said original mix came across as highly insulting. We sure have plenty of accomplished mixes put to 5.1 and plenty of highly experimental quad mixes from what was after all an early experimental period too though.

The notion that just adding a front center speaker channel would drive an engineer to make poor mixes and it would be matter of fact out of their control or something. That's a you problem with your mix, man!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

There's a lot to what they say there Kal. If all the listener is interested in is the old open window to the concert hall paradigm, there's a lot that can be done with 2ch's only. Or even adding an inexpensive ambiance bandaid from things like Logic 7, to BACCH can go along way to emulate the concert hall experience.

Sure as long as one is satisfied with "the old open window to the concert hall paradigm" rather than being in the hall (or, in other words, moving past the open window).

OTOH, there is a (not so) new paradigm for recorded music, the one that puts the performers all around you.

The beginning of our exchange was with a post stating "1. Primarily listens to classical /symphonic/jazz/acoustic The material is generally recorded live, with little or no extra processing and mixing. The goal is to give a "perfect" reproduction of the actual event as if the listener were in the "audiance". What you describe seems like a production decision, not a musical one, unless the performers were actually situated around a central audience. Many 2L recordings are made this way; they capture both the spacial distribution of the performers and the acoustical features of the space and they cannot be properly rendered with 2 channels, with or without bandaids.

 

[jimfisheye]

I mean unless we're talking about those encoded quad on vinyl experiments. The amount of program that collapsed to mono and the front vs back bleeding together made for an "immersive" all speaker big mono component. Some of the weaker quad mixes sounded bigger and fuller from this than listening to them fully discreet. This might suggest one is actually more of a fan of mono or stereo than discrete surround sound. Hmmm... I think I cracked the code here! We've come full circle... in mono and stereo.

 

[Sal1950]

Many 2L recordings are made this way; they capture both the spacial distribution of the performers and the acoustical features of the space and they cannot be properly rendered with 2 channels, with or without bandaids.

All fair enough, since I really know nothing at all about classical music, let alone it's recordings in spatial
formats by specialty labels like 2L. If you could recommend one or two outstanding examples that may be available on Apple music it might be interesting for me to check them out.
I've been actively into multich since the mid 70s but my musical passions have always been in the more popular forms, rock, blues, a little jazz, progressive rock specially. Like many here, I most appreciate the mixes that make active use of all available channels and have often found myself at odds with the types that just can't accept that recording style, insisting on calling it gimmicky and non-musical. I didn't spend all this money on surround only to reproduce some hall ambiance.
As you know I very much appreciated and miss your "In The Round" columns at Stereophile and will never stop my whining about your abandonment of them. Or at least until someone else there picks up the flag and runs with it. LOL
Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving with friends and family..
Cheers

 

[Kal Rubinson]

All fair enough, since I really know nothing at all about classical music, let alone it's recordings in spatial
formats by specialty labels like 2L. If you could recommend one or two outstanding examples that may be available on Apple music it might be interesting for me to check them out.

I do not know what is on Apple music, so I cannot give you any specific suggestions. There are two European labels that I find exemplary and they may be on ATV. TRPTK is generally excellent and offers a traditional perspective (performers up front, ambiance all around) while 2L is more immersive and, especially with larger forces (orchestrad and choruses, spreads them around the listener. If you can see anything from those two, I can pick some examples.

BTW, I have no idea what, if any, transformations are involved in going from the discrete 5.1/7.1 HiRes stuff I download from them to the Atmos packages on ATV.

As you know I very much appreciated and miss your "In The Round" columns at Stereophile and will never stop my whining about your abandonment of them. Or at least until someone else there picks up the flag and runs with it. LOL

Thanks.