Re: DVD-A Semantics

[drSeehas]

DVD-V is only good for stereo uncompressed PCM. For surround you need DVD-A.

No! No! No!
Surround uncompressed PCM is also possible with DVD-Video.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Video#Audio_data

 

[LizardKing]

Never seen a DVD-V with any form of LPCM 5.1....do you have an example?

And you can only stream up to up to 6,144 kbit/s.... LPCM 96/24 5.1 requires about 13.5Mb/s....

 

[LizardKing]

The bitrate limit for LPCM audio on DVD-Video is 6.144 Mbit/s, allowing 8 channels (7.1 surround) × 48 kHz × 16-bit per sample = 6,144 kbit/s. - Anyone ever seen this (or 5.1 48/16 LPCM) on a disc?

You can't do 96/24 LPCM on DVD-V..

 

[drSeehas]

....do you have an example?

No.

And you can only stream up to up to 6,144 kbit/s...

Right.

... LPCM 96/24 5.1 requires about 13.5Mb/s....

No, 13.5 Mbit/s ;-) And you can't do this neither with DVD-Audio. BTW: I have never written that LPCM 96/24 5.1 is possible with DVD-Video.
But: You don't always need 96 kHz. 48 kHz is sufficient. Even with 16 bit that is better than Redbooks 44.1 kHz.

 

[LizardKing]

No.

Right.

No, 13.5 Mbit/s ;-) And you can't do this neither with DVD-Audio. BTW: I have never written that LPCM 96/24 5.1 is possible with DVD-Video.
But: You don't always need 96 kHz. 48 kHz is sufficient. Even with 16 bit that is better than Redbooks 44.1 kHz.

You can't do LPCM 96/24 on DVD-A but you can do MLP 96/24, you can also do 48/24 LPCM on DVD-A...which you can't on DVD-V.. because it is more than 6,144 kbit/s.. about 6.8Mbit/s...

So... you are limited to 16 bit multichannel LPCM - (which I've never seen implemented on a disc). Also I like/want the hi-rez sound of 24 bit multichannel music.

Of course as an alternative - you can put LPCM 96/24 on a Blu-ray disc - burned to a DVD-R....

 

[drSeehas]

... you are limited to 16 bit multichannel LPCM ...

It depends how you define multichannel. Five channels (5.0 or 4.1) with 24 bit uncompressed PCM fit easily into the DVD-Video specs.

48 kHz/16 bit uncompressed PCM 5.1 sounds better to me than every dts 96/24.

 

[fredblue]

From the Wiki regarding DVDA specs:

"The LFE channel is actually full range, and can be recorded at the same resolution as the other channels. This permits it to be used instead as an extra main channel, for example as a "height" speaker above the listening position; this has been done on some releases. Such usage is non-standard, and will often require special set-up by the end-user."

It wouldn't show up as 6.0 because it's not standard, but you could have the exact effect of 6.0 if you want.

ah-ha! this explains the Pet Sounds DVDA!

where vocals have been detected as coming from the .1/LFE channel..!

all along, the producers were really putting a centre height channel in instead!

 

[fredblue]

all this talk of 5.1 this and 6-channel that.. got me wondering, on a related tangent, if any QQ guys have played back those EMI DVD-A's which have DTS ES mixes on them in 6.1 with an additional centre back channel? and if so, if it's worth trying out?

 

[drSeehas]

... the titles Neil Wilkes & Opus Productions have listed on their website as having authored?

I can't find this list on www.opusproductions.com. Any link?

 

[rusinurbe]

Never seen a DVD-V with any form of LPCM 5.1....do you have an example?

And you can only stream up to up to 6,144 kbit/s.... LPCM 96/24 5.1 requires about 13.5Mb/s....

Yes I have an example try the Lilium and 16 Horsepower CD/DVDA packages both have 48/24 LPCM encoding, and sound great.
i also have a couple of NAXOS classical titles in 48/24 LPCM DVDAs
They should probably be called DAD's or DVDVs more correctly

 

[LizardKing]

Yes I have an example try the Lilium and 16 Horsepower CD/DVDA packages both have 48/24 LPCM encoding, and sound great.
i also have a couple of NAXOS classical titles in 48/24 LPCM DVDAs
They should probably be called DAD's or DVDVs more correctly

I'll need to check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure that the Lilium and 16 Horsepower have LPCM 48/24 only on the DVD-A (AUDIO_TS) part not the DVD-V (VIDEO_TS).

 

[sukothai]

It depends how you define multichannel. Five channels (5.0 or 4.1) with 24 bit uncompressed PCM fit easily into the DVD-Video specs.

48 kHz/16 bit uncompressed PCM 5.1 sounds better to me than every dts 96/24.

What do you use to burn 5.0 PCM DVD-Video disks? I have looked through my tools and they only allow 2 or 6 channels, not 5. I tried burning a 5.1 at 48/24, and it let me do it even though it exceeds the bitrate. Then when I play it, static comes out the rear channels on my Oppo and my Pioneer only plays R/L channels (stereo.) So, it seems to be successful at this, you need a compatible player as well. I'm going to try 5.1 at 48/16, just to see if it works, but this wouldn't be an acceptable solution to me, as 48/24 is my minimum when I have a choice.

- Ben

 

[drSeehas]

What do you use to burn 5.0 PCM DVD-Video disks?

Sorry, I am not an author of DVDs.

I have looked through my tools and they only allow 2 or 6 channels, not 5.

The tools seem to be the problem, not the specs.

... 5.1 at 48/16, just to see if it works, but this wouldn't be an acceptable solution to me, as 48/24 is my minimum when I have a choice...

With 6 channels uncompressed PCM you don't have a choice on a DVD-Video.
BTW: Can you mix the bit depth between the channels? 4 channels at 24 bit and 2 channels (e.g. LFE and center or the 2 rears) at 16 bit would fit.

 

[sukothai]

With 6 channels uncompressed PCM you don't have a choice on a DVD-Video.
BTW: Can you mix the bit depth between the channels? 4 channels at 24 bit and 2 channels (e.g. LFE and center or the 2 rears) at 16 bit would fit.

My preference is 5.0 (no LFE) at 96K/24bit or 48K/24bit, however none of the tools I've found allow an odd number of channels in DVD-Video mode. I made a 48K/16bit disc to test my DVD-Video players and only the Oppo will play it. While the specification says multi-channel LPCM is possible, the tools and players don't support it.

I was hoping I could make this work; as it would be very useful to backup watermarked disks this way for the car player, but after a bit of research I can see why this never caught on. The MPEG specification states the support of LPCM is optional: "Dolby AC-3 and/or Linear PCM" and most DVD-Video players go the Dolby AC-3 route for multi-channel. One of my 3 players support multi-channel LPCM. The other two support stereo LPCM. So it seems only the high end players support mult-channel LPCM in DVD-Video mode; which puts us right back in the same situation as DVD-Audio where support is not universal. And since DVD-Audio is a recognized audiophile standard, the tools for DVD-A support many more options in combining different sample sizes, bit rates and number of channels.

I also found comments supporting my conclusion at several developer sites. The sourceforge project Audioplex looked promising until I found comments on the help forum indicating many players only support LPCM stereo.

I know Blu-ray is an option, but I'm looking for a car player solution for backed up DVD-Audio disks; as my original DVD-Audio discs are now too valuable to take on the road. Is there a portable DAC with built-in pre-amp out there that has RCA multi-channel outs that you could plug into a car amplifier?

- Ben

 

[drSeehas]

My preference is 5.0 (no LFE) at 96K/24bit or 48K/24bit, however none of the tools I've found allow an odd number of channels in DVD-Video mode. I made a 48K/16bit disc to test my DVD-Video players and only the Oppo will play it.

First: Thank you for your research.

If none of the tools you have found allow an odd number of channels in DVD-Video mode, you have to go with 5.1. Would 48kHz/20bit be a solution for you? That would comply at least with the specs. I doubt you can hear the difference between 20 and 24 bits.

While the specification says multi-channel LPCM is possible, the tools and players don't support it.

And how did you made the 48kHz/16bit disc? You wrote, at least the OPPO played it.

... MPEG specification states the support of LPCM is optional: "Dolby AC-3 and/or Linear PCM" and most DVD-Video players go the Dolby AC-3 route for multi-channel...

You mistake players for discs. Read in your document the third point under "Audio Signal Decoding System - General":

LPCM (Linear Pulse Code Modulated) is mandatory for all players, but optional on discs themselves.

Unfortunately it doesn't say anything about the mandatory number of channels :-(

 

[sukothai]

The main conclusion of my research is that DVD-Video LPCM multi-channel is not a better solution than DVD-Audio. The tools are worse, the players are difficult to find and the bit rates are limited. Whether or not I got all the other details exactly right, I think the conclusion stands on its own.

This was an interesting project and I really wish it had turned out differently.

 

[drSeehas]

The main conclusion of my research is that DVD-Video LPCM multi-channel is not a better solution than DVD-Audio...

My main conclusion is the same than Neil Wilkes conclusion in this post: A DVD should have both folders (AUDIO and VIDEO) filled, with one exception to Neil: The Video folder should contain multi-channel 48kHz/20bit uncompressed LPCM in addition to compressed dts and stereo uncompressed LPCM.

 

[Robert van Diggele]

I can't find this list on www.opusproductions.com. Any link?

When you look at Projects, you see part of the authored discs, http://www.opusproductions.com/whatsNew.html. Not up to date, but gives a little overview.

 

[LizardKing]

I'll need to check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure that the Lilium and 16 Horsepower have LPCM 48/24 only on the DVD-A (AUDIO_TS) part not the DVD-V (VIDEO_TS).

The Lilium DVD-A has 48/24 LPCM in the AUDIO_TS, and Dullby, DTS and Stereo PCM in the Video_TS.

Are there any real world examples where someone has used LPCM surround on a DVD-V?

 

[sukothai]

This DVD FAQ page says that while every DVD player is required to support LPCM, they are not required to output every channel discretely. It says most DVD players convert the LPCM to Dolby Surround, Dolby PLII or Dolby Digital for output to a receiver.

So if you want discrete 6 channel audio, you need a high end player. And if you are buying a high end player, may as well go for DVD-Audio where you have more audiophile options.