Technical question re. SHM-CD, Blu-spec CD & Digital Files

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Well, this is interesting, because I was thinking that we'd address that exact topic in the next post...

I prepared a lengthy reply, and I would have been interested in going down that road and learning something more about language and where I comitted a logical fallacy etc. But I think it will not lead us anywhere now, because it seems I have lost my credibility as a discussion partner here. So let's leave it there with that part. My apologies for badly chosen words extend to you a well, Rango. I only wanted to commit to a factual discussion, not to twist anyones words.

Only one reply on topic so that I am not accused of not providing evidence when asked for it:
Would you care to offer some kind of evidence to support your claim that the general consensus is not that the higher quality of Blu-ray Audio and DVD-A is objectively noticeable
What I really wanted to say is, that it is not general consensus that the higher quality of Blu-ray Audio and DVD-A compared to a regular audio CD is objectively noticeable, if all are based on the same audio master. I think we have clarified that extensively now and are on the same page there, and no further evidence (besides above study etc.) is needed for that. If your opinion is different, please let me know, I do not want to put any words into your mouth that you did not say or mean.
 
The SHM-CD and BluSpec CD's play louder than a 24 bit CD
So I love them.
I think it really is a case by case basis; I just received a CD that blows its SHM-CD equivalent out of the water. Not only that, but it came in a set of five, three of which I totally wasn’t interested in, but now that I’ve listened to the remastering on these discs, all but one are keepers…just about to listen to that last one now…
 
Before we get into this: I know the basic argument is that it's all down to the mastering, and while I do believe that's true to a very great extent (I think) the question still stands...

...essentially, my question is this: do you get an uplift in audio quality by ripping a file from a disc?

You'd be forgiven for having the knee-jerk reaction of "of course not", but hear me out...the reason I ask is this:

The idea behind SHM-CD is that the material they're manufactured from allows a CD player’s laser to get a better reading as it passes across the notches etched into the disc…

I’ve also read that there’s only an advantage to SHM-CD's if you’re playing the physical disc in a CD player, because it's designed purely to allow the laser to get a better read while passing over the etched notches in real-time…

…In other words, if an SHM-CD and a regular CD both have exactly the same contents, while the SHM-CD may sound better when played by a CD player, you’ll get the same quality rip from both discs regardless.

This would seem to suggest that files ripped from either an SHM-CD, or just a regular CD, could potentially sound like they're of higher quality than the disc they were ripped from...because, rather than the drive trying to read the data in real time over one pass, the drive that's ripping from the disc is (presumably?) taking the time to read all of the information from the disc to create an exact image of the information on the disc.

With regard to SHM-CD's, according to wikipedia "since the CD-Audio format contains inherent error correction [...] it is not known whether the difference in read errors [with SHM-CD] is great enough to be audibly different." which - in itself - suggests that the real-time laser-reading of a disc is inherently prone to error.

While SHM-CD's rely on polycarbonate originally developed for LCD screens to aid a better, real-time reading of the disc by the disc-player's laser, Blu-spec CD's use a combination of "polymeric polycarbonate resin" (Blu-spec CD2 would later use silicone wafers) and a Blu-ray authoring laser for a finer etching process to produce more precise notches that reduce playback errors...

...again, we're seeing technological measures taken to reduce errors in the real-time, laser-reading of the physical disc, which does seem to suggest that an exact image of the content of a disc for digital playback can give you a higher quality output than you'd get from a player using a laser to read a disc in real-time.

What's the thinking on this? Are there already theories on this? If not, what do people think?

My own anecdotal input:

While it seems the response to Blu-spec CD & Blu-spec CD2 varies, I personally have Mountain's Nantucket Sleighride, on both regular CD, Blu-spec CD, and Blu-spec CD2. The Blu-spec CD2 seems granularly better in quality than the Blu-spec CD, and the Blu-spec CD seems granularly better in quality than the regular CD. I'm wondering if there's another, at least granular, increase in quality to be had from ripping the Blu-spec CD2, and indeed whether it's possible to get an uplift in quality when ripping just regular CD's.

What do people think?
It's utter nonsense.

What matters is the sourcing and the mastering.
 
The paper posted above seems to suggest that to be the case (in the note at the end on HD media) but to be honest, with my current setup, across those three discs specifically, the difference is so minimal it's barely discernable; not what you might expect from something that you'd think would be a clear improvement.

The authors of the study linked to above, seem to think that there is a noticeable difference with DVD-A & SACD that - after discussion with sound engineers - they attributed to more care being taken with the mastering. They note that it should be possible to get the same type of quality from a CD.

Meyer and Moran concluded that any differences heard in a DVDA and SACD versus a CD version , were due to different mastering.

They were /are correct.

Their paper was pilloried by audiophile cultists because M&M did not exclusively use music that was entirely 'hi rez' -- recorded in hi rez, mixed in hi rez, mastered in hi rez. Which was ridiculous goalpost-moving, because at the time, reviewers in cult magazines like The Absolute Sound and Stereophile were constantly swooning over the 'hi rez' sound of DVDA/SACD releases ....of classic albums that were recorded on good old analog tape.

Anyway, it's ancient history, and the slick cultist move these days is to whip out the 2016 Reiss meta-analysis -- not an experimental report, but a sifting and re-analysis of data from selected papers already published by others -- that purported to show a small proportion of listeners can sometimes hear 'hi rez'.

It's very debateable and very tiresome but the fact is nothing supports the extravagant claims made about the 'sound' of hi-rez that so many claim to hear right away.

It's the mastering (and sourcing).
 
It can very much be incorrect. And often is. Hence: bias-controlled comparisons.
The conclusion that the media is the variable in question gets proven incorrect, yes. I mean the initial "This one sounds better." Yes, all it takes to do that is make an exact copy 0.5db louder! I know that. You know that. But it's a fair question if you don't know that yet.

It's curious though. As soon as someone suggests the experiment to reduce a random 24/96 file to 16/44.1 and have a listen. You know, for that immediate "Oh heck, that wasn't it!" data point. Everyone gets defensive and these experts now claim to not know technical things like "file" or "computer". Right...
 
The conclusion that the media is the variable in question gets proven incorrect, yes. I mean the initial "This one sounds better." Yes, all it takes to do that is make an exact copy 0.5db louder! I know that. You know that. But it's a fair question if you don't know that yet.

Yes, I know that. But it's a big qualification to your claim " We can say "These two devices sound different." And that's not incorrect!".
It also, as you note, doesn't mean the devices sound different.

If you really meant 'We can say 'these two devices sound different' when they have good reason to" , just say that.


It's curious though. As soon as someone suggests the experiment to reduce a random 24/96 file to 16/44.1 and have a listen. You know, for that immediate "Oh heck, that wasn't it!" data point. Everyone gets defensive and these experts now claim to not know technical things like "file" or "computer". Right...people ahve been arguing about hi ez for decades.

Ignorant people and shysters have been making wild claims about high resolution audio for decades now. Nothing new at all here.
 
I thought I’d found the one forum where people could have a friendly, civilised conversation and not jump down each others throats with distain, disgust and venomous hostility over largely trivial and inconsequential talking points…

…I guess I was wrong.

Edit: I think it might be a good idea to ask a moderator to lock this thread. I didn’t think such a thing would be necessary at a forum such as this one, but here we are.
 
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To the moderators; please feel free to lock this thread if you wish; I won’t be offended in the least; in fact I think you’d be doing the forum as a whole a favour.

I for one won’t be posting here again; an answer to the question has been found and the thread doesn’t really need to exist anymore; especially if it’s just going to provoke hostility.

Moreover I think these types of matters would probably be better covered by a faq.
 
My communication can and will suck sometimes and ssully and I go back and forth on some things around that. It's a thing.

(After rolling my eyes initially...) I really think this is still a fair question! Especially with all the bad faith gaslighting in this arena. Novelty copies of music abound. OP heard something sounding better. They were on a quest for best seats for a favorite album. I love getting better seats for a favorite album when that happens so I'm cheer leading this quest!
 
My communication can and will suck sometimes and ssully and I go back and forth on some things around that. It's a thing.

(After rolling my eyes initially...) I really think this is still a fair question! Especially with all the bad faith gaslighting in this arena. Novelty copies of music abound. OP heard something sounding better. They were on a quest for best seats for a favorite album. I love getting better seats for a favorite album when that happens so I'm cheer leading this quest!
Thanks Jim, I appreciate you. (y)

I just swung by to unsubscribe from this thread. It's not going to be giving me notifications of new posts and I'm not going to be posting to it any further. I think we're just flogging a dead horse at this point and unfortunately, some of us just for the fun of it it seems.

Click on "Unwatch" at the top of the thread if you just want to let it die. (y)
 
I guess. ☺️

I came back one last time to offer the forum an apology for my post about about thinking I'd found a forum where stuff like this doesn't happen...

...it occurred to me that this thread has had in excess of 2000 views, and of all of the people that have viewed it, there's arguably only been one, maybe two, bad actors. I think those are pretty good statistics. (y)
Well everyone has their point of view, and face it, this group of folks have many of us that are highly opinionated. :)
I sometimes wonder when I post something, and then someone else comes back and says the same thing I'm sort of...OK then.
Like the War song: " I know I don't always speak right, but I always know what I'm talking about" or not. LOL!
 
Well I've only read the first few posts here so far, but here is my take. While I'm all for high quality SHM-CDs and Blu-spec CDs I have found that in general they sound worse than their older standard counterparts. That is because they are nearly all butchered by brick wall mastering!

Assuming the same mastering on a standard and SHM CD there should be no difference in sound quality unless perhaps you are using a very old player that has trouble reading some discs, or has very poor error correction. I agree that ripping either type disc should produce the same result.

Will the rip sound better? That would depend what you are playing it on. A computer with a cheap sound card might sound worse than a higher quality player. To compare apples to apples play the files on the same machine or through the same DAC. With a high quality machine like the Oppos I doubt that you would hear any difference between the CD playing or by playing the ripped file.
 
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