Receivers that decode 4.0 PCM/MLP recordings over HDMI

[soesbeout]

Oppo 93 plus Marantz 7011 fails to play properly 4.0 files

My Oppo 93 + Sansui QRX-7500 plays 4.0 just fine.

 

[Sal1950]

My Oppo 93 + Sansui QRX-7500 plays 4.0 just fine.

How are they connected?

 

[soesbeout]

How are they connected?

The front and rears are connected to the Sansui aux hi inputs from the Oppo and the center channel is connected to a separate small amp to drive the center channel, the SW is turned off because I use full range speakers. When I listen to 4.0 I turn off the center channel. The selector is left on CD4 discreet.

 

[Sal1950]

The front and rears are connected to the Sansui aux hi inputs from the Oppo and the center channel is connected to a separate small amp to drive the center channel,

Yep, that's what I thought, the Oppo is doing the decoding of the 4ch data steam and supplying the receiver with analog signals to the various channels. That's a good path for Oppo owners, AFAIK there were only a couple other disc players that could supply multich analog outs to make this arrangement possible.
Cheers

 

[Owen Smith]

Yep, that's what I thought, the Oppo is doing the decoding of the 4ch data steam and supplying the receiver with analog signals to the various channels. That's a good path for Oppo owners, AFAIK there were only a couple other disc players that could supply multich analog outs to make this arrangement possible.
Cheers

Actually there were loads of blu ray players with multi channel analogue outputs when the format first came out. They're very thin on the ground now though.

 

[Sal1950]

Actually there were loads of blu ray players with multi channel analogue outputs when the format first came out. They're very thin on the ground now though.

Quite possibly, my 71 yo brain doesn't remember so good anymore.

 

[soesbeout]

Yep, that's what I thought, the Oppo is doing the decoding of the 4ch data steam and supplying the receiver with analog signals to the various channels. That's a good path for Oppo owners, AFAIK there were only a couple other disc players that could supply multich analog outs to make this arrangement possible.
Cheers

Before I got the Oppo I was using a Pioneer 563a hooked up the same way the Oppo just has more features and a better DAC plus the pioneer would not play FLAC files and had no external memory inputs or internet capabilities.

 

[a3340s]

I have my Oppo downmix any multichannel to 4.0 into my Teac a3340s R2R then out to my Denon 3808 analogue inputs. Sounds fantastic! And I load a tape, press record and make Quad tapes! I use the HDMI for digital.
Oops! I think I just made my first comment after all these years.

 

[Electric Moo]

That's cool!!

I have one of those, but it needs some work. Where do you get your tape?

 

[Krobar]

My results if anyone still interested or having problems:

- Oppo 205 outputting bitstream via HDMI (Audio Only) port
- Ripped files (FLAC and DSF) played via USB
- Marantz SR7013 (Bluray HDMI input)

I've had no problems recognizing 4.0 files using this combination. If it is the Oppo is putting the files into the proper 5.1 container, then additional kudos to Oppo yet again.

Upmixing to 5.1 is easy but it breaks upmixing applied at the AVR/prepro. Output of proper 4.0 is best.

 

[Krobar]

So perhaps it is not an inherent limitation with the newer 2014 & later Atmos-based D+M AVRs' processing after all, is it most certainly a source issue but then apparently the 2020 D+M models have this issue fixed as confirmed by @Veganfloyd's usage with the Sony UBP-X800M2 but not on Denon's 2019 AVR-X3600H model.

It mainly boils down to if receivers support a FL + FR + SBL + SBR multi channnel PCM mapping. The Kodi music player supports all mappings and defaults to FL + FR + SBL + SBR (Which is correct at least from Microsoft's POV). Kodi video player does not yet support channel mapping hints but this functionality is present in the daily builds so should be working when Kodi 20 releases.

The big problem is that Intel integrated graphics cards only support FL + FR + SBL + SBR and 3.1 in Windows, they do not support FL + FR +SL +SR (Which is supported by pretty much every AVR). AMD only support FL + FR +SBL +SBR, not sure about Nvidia.

I have requested Intel add additional PCM multichannel mapping which would mean for Quad we could just mark the files as FL + FR + SL + SR and they would work on pretty much any receiver. Intel have acknowledged it is a driver issue but have not promised a fix:
Windows HDMI Audio Driver - WASAPI PCM 4.0 FL+FR+SL+SR layout support - Intel Community
A few more people asking might help.

 

[oniiz86]

I recently got in touch with Sound United regarding Quad 4.0 PCM support over HDMI, seems to confirm what @Veganfloyd discovered earlier with Denon's 2020 X3700H in that the 2020 D+M models now offer the proper Quad 4.0 PCM/MLP signal support over HDMI that they removed on D+M Atmos 2014/15-2019 model AVRs, this was their response,

Regarding Quad 4.0 playback, 8K supported AVR are supported Quad 4.0 playback. Unfortunately,X8500 can not support it due to hardware limitation. If you upgrade to A version, it will be available. It is same as X8500HA.

Sorry I forgot to add a follow-up response from Sound United when I pressed them further as to why it is definitely a HDMI issue & not a DSP processing based one, perhaps it is what @Krobar was alluding to earlier, where the source component plays some part in ensuring proper Quad 4.0 playback over HDMI with having both Channel Mapping Headers FL + FR + SL + SR & FL + FR + SBL + SBR present, I guess their response isn't so encouraging after all,

Regarding Quad 4.0 playback, it is not related with DSP basically.

It is related HDMI solution.

In addition, the which channel is apply, it is related the specification of player.

In our test, Sony UHD -BD player send the signal as 2/2/0(below case), However, old Panasonic BD player send the signals as 3/2/1.

 

[jarrod2750]

I wonder if this also means that it was fixed on Marantz av8805s that got the A upgrade board. My work around in the mean time was to create a 5th phantom channel for my ripped quad recordings using the mmh software

 

[Krobar]

I recently got in touch with Sound United regarding Quad 4.0 PCM support over HDMI, seems to confirm what @Veganfloyd discovered earlier with Denon's 2020 X3700H in that the 2020 D+M models now offer the proper Quad 4.0 PCM/MLP signal support over HDMI that they removed on D+M Atmos 2014/15-2019 model AVRs, this was their response,

View attachment 73624

Interesting. I wonder if it is the HDMI card understanding the PCM Map and handing it to the Audio DSPs is the limiting factor for other brands/models. I spoke to Arcam/Harman about this and they acknowledged the lack of support but also pointed out it was not part of the CEA861 standard channel maps (This also likely explains why support for FL+FR+SBL+SBR is so patchy).

 

[Sal1950]

I wonder if this also means that it was fixed on Marantz av8805s that got the A upgrade board. My work around in the mean time was to create a 5th phantom channel for my ripped quad recordings using the mmh software

Yep my Marantz AV7703 has the same issue with Quad files.
The good news is thanks to Gary, a minute or two with MMH and it became a none issue.
Fix it or not D-M, I no longer give a rodents behind. LOL

 

[Nyad]

Ha, having run my Oppo 103 for years happily into my Onkyo 609 playing quad Wish You Were Here & DSOTM, now have "upgraded" to a Sony STR 1080 and have lost the rear channels (as per numerous other posters here) split HDMI 1 to TV/HDMI 2 to receiver (as HDMI 1 does not support DSD output).
So from what I gather here is the solution to plug the receiver into HDMI 1?

 

[mandrix]

Ha, having run my Oppo 103 for years happily into my Onkyo 609 playing quad Wish You Were Here & DSOTM, now have "upgraded" to a Sony STR 1080 and have lost the rear channels (as per numerous other posters here) split HDMI 1 to TV/HDMI 2 to receiver (as HDMI 1 does not support DSD output).
So from what I gather here is the solution to plug the receiver into HDMI 1?

I had an Onkyo 609 and it was quad capable as you noted, and I also have an Oppo 103. When I changed to an Onkyo 656 that is when I lost the rear channels. The easiest thing to do is add empty channels, just the center will normally do it but Garry's Music Media Helper can take a surround quad wav/flac file and add zero-volume C and Lfe channels/remap it to 5.1 to make the files pleasing to the AVR's that don't like quad.
Also the AudioMuxer App can do this as well. If you're the tinkering type you can take any of the files from the track into Audition and set the volume as low as it will go and insert it as a C or Lfe or both in a 5.1 and that will work as well.

 

[Nyad]

I had an Onkyo 609 and it was quad capable as you noted, and I also have an Oppo 103. When I changed to an Onkyo 656 that is when I lost the rear channels. The easiest thing to do is add empty channels, just the center will normally do it but Garry's Music Media Helper can take a surround quad wav/flac file and add zero-volume C and Lfe channels/remap it to 5.1 to make the files pleasing to the AVR's that don't like quad.
Also the AudioMuxer App can do this as well. If you're the tinkering type you can take any of the files from the track into Audition and set the volume as low as it will go and insert it as a C or Lfe or both in a 5.1 and that will work as well.

Looks like it might mean buying more hardware, I'm running an old Macbook (first Uni-body) USB2 input unless I can run ethernet cable out of the Oppo 103 directly into the Macbook?

 

[mandrix]

Looks like it might mean buying more hardware, I'm running an old Macbook (first Uni-body) USB2 input unless I can run ethernet cable out of the Oppo 103 directly into the Macbook?

Well you could just rip the music, use one of the apps to remix to 5.1 flac and play with whatever music player you prefer. I use Foobar.
I know nothing about Apple stuff, but if the end of the chain is the Onkyo Sony then you haven't accomplished anything.

 

[mandrix]

Well you could just rip the music, use one of the apps to remix to 5.1 flac and play with whatever music player you prefer. I use Foobar.
I know nothing about Apple stuff, but if the end of the chain is the Onkyo Sony then you haven't accomplished anything.

To clarify, I meant if you do NOT add the additional channels and make quad into 5.0 or 5.1 then as long as playback is through the Sony the same problem will exist. I think you got that but I wanted to be clear. Good luck!