Remaining Elton John 5.1 SACD Mixes, Will They Be Released?

[Clint Eastwood]

We now know that Audio Fidelity passed on releasing the 4 unreleased Elton John 5.1 mixes because they were told by Universal that they had to reissue all 10 classic Elton John albums (the 4 unreleased ones and the 6 previously released ones).

But why wouldn't a company like Analogue Productions take Universal up on that offer? At their usual price of $30 per SACD, they could easily produce a $300 box set with all 10 Elton John SACDs and release them all individually like they did for the Doors set.

Universal knew that Audio Fidelity couldn't afford to do all 10 EJ albums...that's why they structured the deal that way....as far as Analogue Productions being a potential suitor....interesting idea...I'm sure Universal wasn't "shopping" the EJ mixes...but requiring a company to do all those other releases might be a deal breaker for AP as well...I'm not sure how much interest there would be in a mega box set that has 6 titles that have been available for years at a cheap price to just get 4 unreleased ones...would you spend $300 to get the 4 unreleased titles?...it wouldn't be easy to sell the other 6 titles that have been on sale for over a decade at cheap prices....

If you look at the Bloodlines box set that AP sold...it's the same idea that you propose...only on a smaller scale...the 2 Blood Sweat & Tears albums that were already released and they added the other 2 albums that weren't available in hi rez...I don't think they sold that well as they still have them in stock at Acoustic Sounds...I have that set that I picked up used on Ebay and some were sold on amazon that were drastically reduced...they tried something similar with Steve Ray Vaughan and the Texas Hurricane box set...another one I purchased....I got it on sale from another outlet at a reduced price and Acoustic Sounds still has them in stock...they couldn't sell them out either....so I doubt AP would be interested in any such deal from Universal.....

IMO...the more interesting aspect is.....what is Universal going to do with these unreleased titles?....the fan base that would be attracted to these titles are the baby boomers..... and as I've said before...their numbers are diminishing...you can't live forever....so unless they do something in the next few years....the demand will be gone...I suspect they will be offered as downloads when the technology improves...but they are "on the clock"....

 

[4-earredwonder]

The banana on his, er, jeans tells me more than I wanted to know.

Thought you'd never notice......

 

[ar surround]

Universal knew that Audio Fidelity couldn't afford to do all 10 EJ albums...that's why they structured the deal that way....as far as Analogue Productions being a potential suitor....interesting idea...I'm sure Universal wasn't "shopping" the EJ mixes...but requiring a company to do all those other releases might be a deal breaker for AP as well...I'm not sure how much interest there would be in a mega box set that has 6 titles that have been available for years at a cheap price to just get 4 unreleased ones...would you spend $300 to get the 4 unreleased titles?...it wouldn't be easy to sell the other 6 titles that have been on sale for over a decade at cheap prices....

If you look at the Bloodlines box set that AP sold...it's the same idea that you propose...only on a smaller scale...the 2 Blood Sweat & Tears albums that were already released and they added the other 2 albums that weren't available in hi rez...I don't think they sold that well as they still have them in stock at Acoustic Sounds...I have that set that I picked up used on Ebay and some were sold on amazon that were drastically reduced...they tried something similar with Steve Ray Vaughan and the Texas Hurricane box set...another one I purchased....I got it on sale from another outlet at a reduced price and Acoustic Sounds still has them in stock...they couldn't sell them out either....so I doubt AP would be interested in any such deal from Universal.....

IMO...the more interesting aspect is.....what is Universal going to do with these unreleased titles?....the fan base that would be attracted to these titles are the baby boomers..... and as I've said before...their numbers are diminishing...you can't live forever....so unless they do something in the next few years....the demand will be gone...I suspect they will be offered as downloads when the technology improves...but they are "on the clock"....

You would never get me to spend $300 on those 4 unreleased titles. If they put the whole enchilada of 10 albums in a hi-res Blu-ray set priced like the Chicago Quadio set, well then that's more reasonable. Perhaps it would also open up the market to those who have no SACD playback capacity.

 

[rtbluray]

Universal knew that Audio Fidelity couldn't afford to do all 10 EJ albums...that's why they structured the deal that way....as far as Analogue Productions being a potential suitor....interesting idea...I'm sure Universal wasn't "shopping" the EJ mixes...but requiring a company to do all those other releases might be a deal breaker for AP as well...I'm not sure how much interest there would be in a mega box set that has 6 titles that have been available for years at a cheap price to just get 4 unreleased ones...would you spend $300 to get the 4 unreleased titles?...it wouldn't be easy to sell the other 6 titles that have been on sale for over a decade at cheap prices....

If you look at the Bloodlines box set that AP sold...it's the same idea that you propose...only on a smaller scale...the 2 Blood Sweat & Tears albums that were already released and they added the other 2 albums that weren't available in hi rez...I don't think they sold that well as they still have them in stock at Acoustic Sounds...I have that set that I picked up used on Ebay and some were sold on amazon that were drastically reduced...they tried something similar with Steve Ray Vaughan and the Texas Hurricane box set...another one I purchased....I got it on sale from another outlet at a reduced price and Acoustic Sounds still has them in stock...they couldn't sell them out either....so I doubt AP would be interested in any such deal from Universal.....

IMO...the more interesting aspect is.....what is Universal going to do with these unreleased titles?....the fan base that would be attracted to these titles are the baby boomers..... and as I've said before...their numbers are diminishing...you can't live forever....so unless they do something in the next few years....the demand will be gone...I suspect they will be offered as downloads when the technology improves...but they are "on the clock"....

Yes, I would buy such a box set, because with Universal's current model of only selling surround mixes in expensive box sets, you would have to spend around $400 anyway to get those unreleased 5.1 mixes through that release model, although the one benefit of Universal releasing the mixes themselves would be that the format of choice would probably be Blu-Ray, which is definitely much less of a PITA format compared to SACD.

So, to summarize, there's only two realistic release models I can see as of right now:
1) Analogue Productions boxes up all 10 Elton John Multichannel SACDs (the 6 released ones and the 4 unreleased ones) and possibly sells them individually too (like the Doors SACDs)
2) Universal and Elton John release 50th anniversary box sets for each album (beginning with "Elton John" in 2020) and include a high-res Blu-Ray Audio disc with each box set

 

[ar surround]

Yes, I would buy such a box set, because with Universal's current model of only selling surround mixes in expensive box sets, you would have to spend around $400 anyway to get those unreleased 5.1 mixes through that release model, although the one benefit of Universal releasing the mixes themselves would be that the format of choice would probably be Blu-Ray, which is definitely much less of a PITA format compared to SACD.

So, to summarize, there's only two realistic release models I can see as of right now:
1) Analogue Productions boxes up all 10 Elton John Multichannel SACDs (the 6 released ones and the 4 unreleased ones) and possibly sells them individually too (like the Doors SACDs)
2) Universal and Elton John release 50th anniversary box sets for each album (beginning with "Elton John" in 2020) and include a high-res Blu-Ray Audio disc with each box set

I like your release model #1, especially the individual offerings. I don't like #2 unless they are priced somewhere in the range of Electric Ladyland or the Tull sets. While I will spend $139 on TWA, none of the unreleased Elton Johns are worth that kind of money to me. But they may be worth it for more hard core fans of EJ.

 

[GOS]

"Don’t Shoot Me I'm Only The Piano Player," "Caribou," "Rock Of The Westies" and "Blue Moves" are the missing links in our SACD collections of Elton John.

Why the heck release the titles they did, but not "Don’t Shoot Me I'm Only The Piano Player" or "Caribou" when they were supposedly already mixed, ready to go at the time? They skipped over the order of his 1970's releases by not releasing those titles. Why?

"The Bitch Is Back" in 5.1 would be killer, as well as "Rock Of The Westies" and "Blue Moves."

Thought I'd bump this post...since it tells exactly what we are missing. Yep, I'd love to get those, especially Caribou and Rock of the Westies!!!

 

[4-earredwonder]

The opportune time for Universal to release the missing EJs was during their BD~A 'launch' when they re~released GBYBR on BD~A [the ONLY EJ title to receive a DVD~A, SACD AND BD~A hi res release].

Acoustic Sounds is currently showing three remaining EJ multichannel titles but two are on backorder. Wonder if Universal will repress those SACDs: https://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&searchtext=elton+john+sacd

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Yes, I would buy such a box set, because with Universal's current model of only selling surround mixes in expensive box sets, you would have to spend around $400 anyway to get those unreleased 5.1 mixes through that release model, although the one benefit of Universal releasing the mixes themselves would be that the format of choice would probably be Blu-Ray, which is definitely much less of a PITA format compared to SACD.

So, to summarize, there's only two realistic release models I can see as of right now:
1) Analogue Productions boxes up all 10 Elton John Multichannel SACDs (the 6 released ones and the 4 unreleased ones) and possibly sells them individually too (like the Doors SACDs)
2) Universal and Elton John release 50th anniversary box sets for each album (beginning with "Elton John" in 2020) and include a high-res Blu-Ray Audio disc with each box set

I don't disagree with what you are saying...but I'd rather go the box set model of only the unreleased titles....let's say the average cost of the box set was $120 each....an individual could buy the box set...which would include something else....like bonus cuts or unreleased studio material on CDs and the usual book of pictures...etc...and worst case scenario vinyl....then you could rip all the music you wanted and sell the rest in parts or the whole box set...the advantage of having a box set is you bring in the larger pool of customers....our 2 channel friends who comprise the overwhelming majority of customers...because we on the forum usually get the best price ahead of the pack that gives us the edge in the resale market on Ebay or discogs….so an individual could recover a lot of their individual expenses for the box set....you could get the music for a fraction of the cost....

As bad as I thought the Hemispheres box set was...I sold it on Ebay and only lost $20 after all the expenses...and that was my worst resale attempt...I at least break even or make a few dollars....so for me...the unreleased box sets would be the best route...I doubt the record company would even attempt a 10 disc EJ set...your chances of getting rid of the 6 previously released discs would be slim...but having said all this...I'd buy any combo to get those unreleased titles

 

[4-earredwonder]

I don't disagree with what you are saying...but I'd rather go the box set model of only the unreleased titles....let's say the average cost of the box set was $120 each....an individual could buy the box set...which would include something else....like bonus cuts or unreleased studio material on CDs and the usual book of pictures...etc...and worst case scenario vinyl....then you could rip all the music you wanted and sell the rest in parts or the whole box set...the advantage of having a box set is you bring in the larger pool of customers....our 2 channel friends who comprise the overwhelming majority of customers...because we on the forum usually get the best price ahead of the pack that gives us the edge in the resale market on Ebay or discogs….so an individual could recover a lot of their individual expenses for the box set....you could get the music for a fraction of the cost....

As bad as I thought the Hemispheres box set was...I sold it on Ebay and only lost $20 after all the expenses...and that was my worst resale attempt...I at least break even or make a few dollars....so for me...the unreleased box sets would be the best route...I doubt the record company would even attempt a 10 disc EJ set...your chances of getting rid of the 6 previously released discs would be slim...but having said all this...I'd buy any combo to get those unreleased titles

IMO, it would be an indicator if Universal didn't repress the existing EJ multichannel SACDs which have continuously been in print since the early 00's. The box set route for the remaining 4 titles would have to be spread over a few years and in physical disc [remaining] time we're talking 3 or 4 years. IMO, that would be an unlikely scenario..

If, as bmoura surmises, the average cost for an A~lister licensing fee is $30K PER title [x 10], would AP tackle such a project .... unless of course Universal/EJ struck a 'deal' ....... the whole enchilada for $200k~$250k and call it a day....and if AP did sell them individually...apart from the box set, at say $35 each......how many would spring for the ALL INCLUSIVE box set @ say $450? And would that INCLUDE the box???????

And of course the worse case scenario: Universal Japan has embraced MQA in a big way .... watch them release ALL the EJs in MQA encoded UHQCD [STEREO]. Horrors!

 

[Clint Eastwood]

IMO, it would be an indicator if Universal didn't repress the existing EJ multichannel SACDs which have continuously been in print since the early 00's. The box set route for the remaining 4 titles would have to spread over a few years and in physical disc [remaining] time we're talking 3 or 4 years. IMO, that would be an unlikely route.

If, as bmoura surmises, the average cost for an A~lister licensing fee is $30K PER title [x 10], would AP tackle such a project .... unless of course Universal/EJ struck a 'deal' ....... the whole enchilada for $200k~$250k and call it a day....and if AP did sell them individually...apart from the box set, at say $35 each......how many would spring for the box set @ say $450?

The stumbling block for me in this discussion always goes back to the released EJ titles...I don't know if over the years they were ever repressed or not...but the fact that right now you can go on a site and buy Madman for $13 is why a re-issue of that series of released titles wouldn't work...they have been "done to death"....as good as they are...and they are that good...they have milked every last drop out of them IMO...the only hope is the unreleased titles...nobody is going to go on Acoustic Sounds and spend $30 for one of the EJ titles that have been sold for over a decade for well under $20...Madman was released in 2004 IIRC...and it's still available...

It's a fun topic to discuss...gotta run now...on my way to my favorite health food store...hehe...love their food...

 

[fredblue]

how about a series of EJ SACD 2-fers?

bundle an album not previously released on MCh SACD with one previously released on MCh SACD that's more scarce now and fetches bigger bucks than the other SACDs.

looking around online, Honky Chateau, the S/T & Captain Fantastic SACDs now command a premium.. Tumbleweed & Madman still seemingly readily available at rrp.

so, you could package
Don't Shoot Me.. w/Honky Chateau,
Caribou w/EJ S/T,
& Westies w/Captain Fantastic.

Blue Moves would be a 2-SACD set in its' own right, as would Here & There (also remixed into 5.1 by Greg Penny).

if a label really had to release all the EJ 5.1's as part of the deal, then i imagine a new GYBR set with the bonuses and nicely remastered Stereo would still shift. you'd take a hit with a Tumbleweed/Madman 2-fer that might sell potentially fewer copies than the others.

you'd want great new Stereo remasters on all of the releases too of course, bonus tracks and new liner notes, to give as much appeal as possible.

if you wanted to take things a step further, do an Empty Sky SACD with the album in both the rare withdrawn Mono mix and the Stereo mix, plus bonuses.. and a 2-SACD set of 17-11-70 complete and in the correct running order.

 

[MrSmithers]

What with Rocketman hitting the silver screen this year and the Farewell Yellow Brick Road tour gathering pace - it could be the right time for an expanded back catalogue re-issue that includes a multichannel mix, a la Doors or Talking Heads? The crappy duets thing seems to show that new ideas are needed. I genuinely think the Universal execs don't even know about what they have or understand it. Their response to the Steely Dan campaign sort of confirms it.

Personally I'd want them to be issued individually and I actually think they'd make more money that way. But.... I guess the main thing is just to get them released!!!

 

[ar surround]

Why do I get the sick feeling that we are the only ones discussing / debating this matter? Are release of these EJ 5.1's even on Universal's radar screen?

 

[JonUrban]

I suggested to Marshall back then to do exactly what Adam is suggesting above. Make small box sets, like the original Rush little boxes. Put one unreleased Elton with 2 released, and sell them as a set. Because he's such a stand up guy, and a fan, and cared about his reputation and customer service, he told me that even if UMe allowed him to sell them that way, he would not, as it would be "taking advantage of his customers".

That's a class guy! (Heck, I would have bought them and smiled, but that's me. A wacko.)

 

[fredblue]

I suggested to Marshall back then to do exactly what Adam is suggesting above. Make small box sets, like the original Rush little boxes. Put one unreleased Elton with 2 released, and sell them as a set. Because he's such a stand up guy, and a fan, and cared about his reputation and customer service, he told me that even if UMe allowed him to sell them that way, he would not, as it would be "taking advantage of his customers".

That's a class guy! (Heck, I would have bought them and smiled, but that's me. A wacko.)

maybe in a similar way to how AF redid Winelight, Homecoming, etc for SACD with superior mastering to the previously released WEA DVD-A's, they could've approached the previously released EJ SACDs by re-doing them with better sound also..!?

ah well, its all academic now..
AF have v.sadly ceased to be and I doubt such an offer from Universal would still be on the table anyway, the EJs are probably being eyed up for a Sony 360 degree headphone rejig as we speak. they'll stop at all the ones we got already, of course. or just do Yellow Brick Road only - again.

what a wreck of the westies.. a caribou-boo.. boo hoo, nobody knows it but that's some blue mastering moves.. still i won't shoot AF it was only an sacd layer!!

 

[mandrix]

Oh! I did not know that Audio Fidelity had closed it's doors. Maybe Marshall will get the bug and send us some cool SACD's again one day.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Oh! I did not know that Audio Fidelity had closed it's doors. Maybe Marshall will get the bug and send us some cool SACD's again one day.

Just to get you up to speed...Moe Green is no longer at the Tropicana....the Beatles broke up and we lost in Vietnam..I think we are 10-1 now..since I live in Florida too I know the news takes a while to get here

 

[humprof]

how about a series of EJ SACD 2-fers?

bundle an album not previously released on MCh SACD with one previously released on MCh SACD that's more scarce now and fetches bigger bucks than the other SACDs.

looking around online, Honky Chateau, the S/T & Captain Fantastic SACDs now command a premium.. Tumbleweed & Madman still seemingly readily available at rrp.

so, you could package
Don't Shoot Me.. w/Honky Chateau,
Caribou w/EJ S/T,
& Westies w/Captain Fantastic.

Blue Moves would be a 2-SACD set in its' own right, as would Here & There (also remixed into 5.1 by Greg Penny).

if a label really had to release all the EJ 5.1's as part of the deal, then i imagine a new GYBR set with the bonuses and nicely remastered Stereo would still shift. you'd take a hit with a Tumbleweed/Madman 2-fer that might sell potentially fewer copies than the others.

you'd want great new Stereo remasters on all of the releases too of course, bonus tracks and new liner notes, to give as much appeal as possible.

if you wanted to take things a step further, do an Empty Sky SACD with the album in both the rare withdrawn Mono mix and the Stereo mix, plus bonuses.. and a 2-SACD set of 17-11-70 complete and in the correct running order.

As always: I like the way you think! (And the cut of your jib. Etc.)

 

[humprof]

What with Rocketman hitting the silver screen this year and the Farewell Yellow Brick Road tour gathering pace - it could be the right time for an expanded back catalogue re-issue that includes a multichannel mix, a la Doors or Talking Heads? The crappy duets thing seems to show that new ideas are needed. I genuinely think the Universal execs don't even know about what they have or understand it. Their response to the Steely Dan campaign sort of confirms it.

Personally I'd want them to be issued individually and I actually think they'd make more money that way. But.... I guess the main thing is just to get them released!!!

I'm not sure the Steely Dan campaign told us anything about what the Universal execs think. I'm only being coy about names here because I want to protect the innocent, but at the beginning our inside contact had assured us, credibly, that the exec they suggested we approach was receptive to surround projects. But the person who effectively put the kibosh on the campaign was, er, someone associated with our contact, who thought it was not worth approaching said exec with what he judged to be an insufficiently robust show of advance interest. So who knows? Too many gatekeepers, too many second-guessers.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Why do I get the sick feeling that we are the only ones discussing / debating this matter? Are release of these EJ 5.1's even on Universal's radar screen?

I'm sure they aren't losing any sleep over the unreleased/finished titles they have in their vaults...the questions I'm curious about are....do they know where they are located and what kind of shape are they in