Rhino Quadio - Batch #8 Speculation

[steelydave]

Interesting that some of their earlier, more successful titles didn't get mixed into quad at some point. But also true that none of their albums are any I would call essential titles. They were always much more of a singles band. I was kinda hoping someone would say that the 1974 Greatest Hits package saw a quad release.

A quad version of the Greatest Hits album actually showed up in some pre-release lists (and is mentioned in @Mark Anderson 's quad recordings not released list) but sadly never made it out. There's a story from around that time that with ABC in the terminal decline that would lead to their bankruptcy and sale to MCA, as a cost-cutting measure, ABC president Jay Lasker ordered that all tapes other than finished stereo masters be disposed of to save on storage costs. This included original mono masters, and also multitracks - I read somewhere else that a Mamas and Papas Greatest Hits quad mix was abandoned because the multitracks were gone, so it wouldn't surprise me if the same fate befell the Three Dog Night release as well.

I've mentioned this before, but in that era labels were generally in the business of selling 'new' music - ABC didn't get in to quad until well into 1973 (and out by mid-1975) so that's why you see the vast majority (or maybe all?) of their quad mixes are from that time period. Also from a production cost standpoint, it was much cheaper and more efficient for them to have a current album mixed in stereo and quad at the same time, than it was to go back and find all the tapes for an older album along with a studio and engineer with the right equipment to make it sound something like the original stereo mix.

 

[kenm]

A quad version of the Greatest Hits album actually showed up in some pre-release lists (and is mentioned in @Mark Anderson 's quad recordings not released list) but sadly never made it out. There's a story from around that time that with ABC in the terminal decline that would lead to their bankruptcy and sale to MCA, as a cost-cutting measure, ABC president Jay Lasker ordered that all tapes other than finished stereo masters be disposed of to save on storage costs. This included original mono masters, and also multitracks - I read somewhere else that a Mamas and Papas Greatest Hits quad mix was abandoned because the multitracks were gone, so it wouldn't surprise me if the same fate befell the Three Dog Night release as well.

I've mentioned this before, but in that era labels were generally in the business of selling 'new' music - ABC didn't get in to quad until well into 1973 (and out by mid-1975) so that's why you see the vast majority (or maybe all?) of their quad mixes are from that time period. Also from a production cost standpoint, it was much cheaper and more efficient for them to have a current album mixed in stereo and quad at the same time, than it was to go back and find all the tapes for an older album along with a studio and engineer with the right equipment to make it sound something like the original stereo mix.

Would have LOVED Mamas & Papas Hits in QUAD.

 

[key_wiz]

A quad version of the Greatest Hits album actually showed up in some pre-release lists (and is mentioned in @Mark Anderson 's quad recordings not released list) but sadly never made it out. There's a story from around that time that with ABC in the terminal decline that would lead to their bankruptcy and sale to MCA, as a cost-cutting measure, ABC president Jay Lasker ordered that all tapes other than finished stereo masters be disposed of to save on storage costs. This included original mono masters, and also multitracks - I read somewhere else that a Mamas and Papas Greatest Hits quad mix was abandoned because the multitracks were gone, so it wouldn't surprise me if the same fate befell the Three Dog Night release as well.

I've mentioned this before, but in that era labels were generally in the business of selling 'new' music - ABC didn't get in to quad until well into 1973 (and out by mid-1975) so that's why you see the vast majority (or maybe all?) of their quad mixes are from that time period. Also from a production cost standpoint, it was much cheaper and more efficient for them to have a current album mixed in stereo and quad at the same time, than it was to go back and find all the tapes for an older album along with a studio and engineer with the right equipment to make it sound something like the original stereo mix.

very well could have been their fate.

One side note, however -- the 1993 "Celebrate" collection used a lot of the mono single mixes. Whether those came from safety copies or whether they were spared from being disposed of as these mixes were the ones played on the radio and most people would be familiar with? no idea.

 

[par4ken]

Interesting that some of their earlier, more successful titles didn't get mixed into quad at some point. But also true that none of their albums are any I would call essential titles. They were always much more of a singles band. I was kinda hoping someone would say that the 1974 Greatest Hits package saw a quad release.

I agree. Also too bad that there was no Steppenwolf albums released in quad. I would jump at any one of them if they existed!!!!

 

[par4ken]

I've mentioned this before, but in that era labels were generally in the business of selling 'new' music - ABC didn't get in to quad until well into 1973 (and out by mid-1975) so that's why you see the vast majority (or maybe all?) of their quad mixes are from that time period. Also from a production cost standpoint, it was much cheaper and more efficient for them to have a current album mixed in stereo and quad at the same time, than it was to go back and find all the tapes for an older album along with a studio and engineer with the right equipment to make it sound something like the original stereo mix.

ABC (Command) started releasing quad in 1971. ABC releases some mostly jazz recordings in quad as well at that early date.

The December 1971 ABC Promo album "A Year In Your Ear" contains two "Sansui" encoded tracks.

B.B. King "Guess Who" was released in 1972.

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[steelydave]

very well could have been their fate.

One side note, however -- the 1993 "Celebrate" collection used a lot of the mono single mixes. Whether those came from safety copies or whether they were spared from being disposed of as these mixes were the ones played on the radio and most people would be familiar with? no idea.

Yeah I don't know anything beyond what I've read, but I think oftentimes in big companies you have the guy at the top who only thinks in purely financial terms, and then amongst the rank and file of the companies, you have people who love music, and appreciate the significance of it, so in acts of "civil disobedience" they may have told the higher ups that they disposed of or destroyed assets that they actually preserved after all. Or maybe they found them in other vaults, or foreign territory vaults, who knows.

This quote from the beginning of Bill Holland's 1997 Billboard article about the sad state of master tape preservation at the time (required reading for anyone interested in this kind of thing) gives you an example of this in action:

"In the '70s, there was an order at MCA to the upstate New York vault to destroy all the metal parts of the classic pre-1950 Decca, Vocalion and Brunswick sides," said a source. "But the order was quietly ignored by people at the vault who knew better, who later explained that there was plenty of space and no reason to do a systematic meltdown."

 

[key_wiz]

Yeah I don't know anything beyond what I've read, but I think oftentimes in big companies you have the guy at the top who only thinks in purely financial terms, and then amongst the rank and file of the companies, you have people who love music, and appreciate the significance of it, so in acts of "civil disobedience" they may have told the higher ups that they disposed of or destroyed assets that they actually preserved after all. Or maybe they found them in other vaults, or foreign territory vaults, who knows.

This quote from the beginning of Bill Holland's 1997 Billboard article about the sad state of master tape preservation at the time (required reading for anyone interested in this kind of thing) gives you an example of this in action:

"In the '70s, there was an order at MCA to the upstate New York vault to destroy all the metal parts of the classic pre-1950 Decca, Vocalion and Brunswick sides," said a source. "But the order was quietly ignored by people at the vault who knew better, who later explained that there was plenty of space and no reason to do a systematic meltdown."

Yeah. "Disposed of" for storage-space reasons doesn't necessarily mean they all were tossed in the trash. It could have very well meant "I'll dispose of them by tossing them into the truck of my car..." in some cases.

 

[steelydave]

ABC (Command) started releasing quad in 1971. ABC releases some mostly jazz recordings in quad as well at that early date.

The December 1971 ABC Promo album "A Year In Your Ear" contains two "Sansui" encoded tracks.

B.B. King "Guess Who" was released in 1972.

Yes you're right, I neglected to mention these. The first six Command Quadraphonic releases were strictly from Enoch Light's Command label, and all six of these albums are from the 1959-1966 period, presumably from quad mixes Light did before he left to start Project 3 in 1967. When ABC started doing their own QS releases in 1973, they revived the label in name only for this purpose.

You're right about the BB King albums, and John Lee Hooker as well came in later 1972 - I think these were probably at the behest of Ed Michel, who ended up running Impulse! (ABC's jazz subsidiary) and who turned it into a single-inventory quad label until partway through 1975.

 

[key_wiz]

Yeah I don't know anything beyond what I've read, but I think oftentimes in big companies you have the guy at the top who only thinks in purely financial terms, and then amongst the rank and file of the companies, you have people who love music, and appreciate the significance of it, so in acts of "civil disobedience" they may have told the higher ups that they disposed of or destroyed assets that they actually preserved after all. Or maybe they found them in other vaults, or foreign territory vaults, who knows.

This quote from the beginning of Bill Holland's 1997 Billboard article about the sad state of master tape preservation at the time (required reading for anyone interested in this kind of thing) gives you an example of this in action:

"In the '70s, there was an order at MCA to the upstate New York vault to destroy all the metal parts of the classic pre-1950 Decca, Vocalion and Brunswick sides," said a source. "But the order was quietly ignored by people at the vault who knew better, who later explained that there was plenty of space and no reason to do a systematic meltdown."

amazing article. Thanks for the link!

 

[steelydave]

Yeah. "Disposed of" for storage-space reasons doesn't necessarily mean they all were tossed in the trash. It could have very well meant "I'll dispose of them by tossing them into the truck of my car..." in some cases.

Yes I think this is definitely the case - I spoke with an ebay seller - and nearly bought a bunch of quad tapes from him - about 15 years ago, who told me a story that basically an engineer at GRT (who did all of ABC's tape manufacturing) had taken home all their masters and kept them in his mother's basement after the company went out of business in the late '70s, and then eventually committed suicide after suffering mental health issues for many years. After he passed away his mother was going to have the tapes sent to the dump, I think, but let some people come and take away what they wanted. The guy I spoke to got some small percentage which included some quad masters including Ramsey Lewis, The Grass Roots and Cat Stevens - he sent me photos of them as well, so he's not lying. Probably fearful of legal repercussions he wouldn't tell me any more of the story (so no who/where/what/when/why/how) and eventually got cold feet about the deal we struck and disappeared - maybe in retrospect I alarmed him by asking too many questions, I dunno. But yes, hopefully all those other GRT tapes are out there somewhere, and one day they'll make it into the hands of someone who can reunite them with a/the label that will actually reissue them. I tried my best with these ones, that's for sure!

 

[jefe1]

Thank you Steelydave for the sad information and that article I will read later.
Boy what could have been.....there's a Steppenwolf cd collection that features the mono singles some of them taken from acetates....
where are the original tapes? and the outtakes that surely existed.......

I hope there is a special level in Hell reserved for record company executives.

 

[QuadKev]

A bit early I know . However I noticed the lukewarm response to batch 7.
Although I will be buying 3 out of 4 of those titles. (-Spinners)


And I think I might know one of the next Quadio titles , from a hint I noticed on one of the prior posts to 7.

If I'm wrong no harm done.

Next batch may be eclectic or electronic titles focus.

With 'Beaver And Krause - Gandharva/All Good Men"


Now let the speculation begin.........

If it's electronic. Let's go for the gold. John Cale created an unreleased quadraphonic mix for the A Clockwork Orange soundtrack for Warner Bros.
Let our voices be heard!!!!

 

[jefe1]

Oh man if only......Ill take any quad version of A Clockwork Orange, the soundtrack or Wendys.

 

[JulesRules]

I agree that ELP would be fan-tastic to have ......but ELP is not with Rhino WEA any longer .

They are a Sony product.

They are actually on BMG.

 

[key_wiz]

They are actually on BMG.

Sony bought out BMG back in 2006.

 

[JDeanB]

Interesting that some of their earlier, more successful titles didn't get mixed into quad at some point. But also true that none of their albums are any I would call essential titles. They were always much more of a singles band. I was kinda hoping someone would say that the 1974 Greatest Hits package saw a quad release.

I always wondered why that comp skipped "Eli's Coming".

Don't laugh but out of nowhere I remembered I have a Q8 of Tommy James and The Shondells Greatest Hits and the surround mix was really good. Would be great to have that Quad mix on Blu ray. Haven't had the Q8 deck setup in decades it would be fun to drag it out and the old cartridges. And "F" you Rod Stewart....LOL, how I want Atlantic Crossing so bad. Also, Arlo Guthrie, Brooklynn Cowboys.

Hmm...I see Rhino still has some Tommy James & The Shondells in print....

 

[key_wiz]

I always wondered why that comp skipped "Eli's Coming".

Technically it was considered a follow up to their first hits compilation, "Golden Bisquits". Even though two tracks, "One" and "One Man Band", were on the earlier one as well.

 

[par4ken]

I always wondered why that comp skipped "Eli's Coming".

Technically it was considered a follow up to their first hits compilation, "Golden Bisquits". Even though two tracks, "One" and "One Man Band", were on the earlier one as well.

I had to check, I had thought that that compilation was simply "Golden Bisquits" with a few later hits added. Like the many "16 Greatest Hits" albums that appeared after a previous compilation. In any case "Bisquits" has always been my go to compilation, it has been a staple since the very early seventies and one of the first albums that I ever owned! No CD release? I love the cover art on Golden Bisquits as well, "Joy To The World - Their Greatest Hits" looks so plain in comparison.

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[key_wiz]

I had to check, I had thought that that compilation was simply "Golden Bisquits" with a few later hits added. Like the many "16 Greatest Hits" albums that appeared after a previous compilation. In any case "Bisquits" has always been my go to compilation, it has been a staple since the very early seventies and one of the first albums that I ever owned! No CD release? I love the cover art on Golden Bisquits as well, "Joy To The World - Their Greatest Hits" looks so plain in comparison.

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The 20-track double-LP/single CD "Best of Three Dog Night" is probably the best compilation for getting everything essential. Terrible album cover as well, but chock-full of great hit singles. All the essential stuff from the earlier two compilations plus "Pieces of April".

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Both Hard Labor (from 1974) and Coming Down Your Way (from 1975) were released in quad on 8-track and QS LP, but yes, I believe it's most likely that all of the ABC (and probably A&M as well) quad masters went up in the 2008 UMG vault fire so aside from what might exist as safeties in foreign vaults (which isn't much) they're probably almost all gone.

For me Hard Labor is a real dud (and a terrible album cover) but I love Coming Down Your Way - not their most successful LP but some great songs and an excellent quad mix. There's some information and photos in the poll thread for the album but some years back some quad masters for a shelved version of the album (when it was still called Dog Style - what is it with these guys and terrible album names?) surfaced on eBay and were apparently scooped up by the manager of Chuck Negron, one of the band's singers. A few of the songs from this shelved album that didn't make it on to Coming Down Your Way ended up on a Negron album a few years back so you have to presume they simply folded down the quad masters to stereo and did whatever extra post-production sweetening and mastering to make them presentable.

I think there's has been some misunderstanding with regards to 'Dog Style' , as a working title for 'Comming Down Your Way' .
According to Schwann 's December 1976 :

Three Dog Night - Dog Style Dunhill 50198 vinyl

It would seem that Three Dog Night -Dog Style , did exist.