Santana Lotus: Complete Edition in SACD Surround Sound and DSD 256 Stereo Download

[marpow]

OK, excuse me for being blunt, but you know if I had this release in my possession I would be straight up on whether this is a ambient MCH or a discrete. There are enough people who have this release in there possession to let us know on the QQ Forum. It takes about 30 seconds to make the call, and then after listening to the 3 discs the owner can dissect it a bit to let us know if it is a worthy release.
I postponed my release from CDJapan because I added it to the Steve Miller SHM CD stereo cardboard mini LP collection being released April 26. So I will have the MCH SACD of Lotus around the 26th and you can bet I will be letting you know my listening experience as I hated the stereo Lotus from AF, big waste of money.
Sorry to be rough like this but, cmon, if you have it who cares about everything but the sonic quality, lets hear your experience with the sonic quality of the SACD MCH.

 

[quicksrt]

OK, excuse me for being blunt, but you know if I had this release in my possession I would be straight up on whether this is a ambient MCH or a discrete. There are enough people who have this release in there possession to let us know on the QQ Forum. It takes about 30 seconds to make the call, and then after listening to the 3 discs the owner can dissect it a bit to let us know if it is a worthy release.
I postponed my release from CDJapan because I added it to the Steve Miller SHM CD stereo cardboard mini LP collection being released April 26. So I will have the MCH SACD of Lotus around the 26th and you can bet I will be letting you know my listening experience as I hated the stereo Lotus from AF, big waste of money.
Sorry to be rough like this but, cmon, if you have it who cares about everything but the sonic quality, lets hear your experience with the sonic quality of the SACD MCH.

It's discrete ambient MCH! lol

 

[fredblue]

It's discrete ambient MCH! lol

lol..!
fwiw I've reluctantly cancelled mine until some QQ members report back on the quality and nature of the surround mix. I can't justify £70+ on a pretty package with marginally better MCh than I can get out of the SQ LPs and the Surround Master. It shouldn't matter though if the Surround mix is lacking and sales of this one to Surround fans are poor as a result of word spreading of a lacklustre mix since sales to Surround devotees are so small as to be insignificant, is what we're told time and again.

 

[winopener]

Surround: Non-existent! You know where the very quiet audience are at the end of tracks, ........behind you, ............occasionally you hear a bit of high-frequency reverb/echo from a Cymbal or the like in the rears, otherwise its basically a stereo album. So whoever mixed this into Quad back in the day - didn't understand Quad, am I being harsh, I don't think so.

Two questions:
1) Since this release is, despite all things, the first time that it is in a discrete format, where is the location of the Conga blast at the beginning of Samba de Sausalito?
2) How are the new extra tracks?

 

[Dillydipper]

But I do understand your logic: The Games People Play.......and that won't end anytime too soon. The Music Industry has always been rife with DECEIT!

BUT...that doesn't mean you have to accept their policies as your own. You are still a consumer in a country that gives you certain rights. You can't change a bum product somebody sells you, but you CAN demand your money back.

And, on MY stereo? Eventually "The Games People Play"...fades out.

 

[marpow]

This is a tough one. I'd bought the AF "Lotus" as it was SQ encoded, partly in the hope it would encourage more, I listened to it via DD ProII Music (I'm waiting on the Involve Surround Pre-amp/decoder to be released) and it didn't come out very Quad. So when Sony announced "Lotus" as a discrete 4.0 SACD set I ordered, kind of hoping that it would be discrete, but also as I hoped it would encourage more Quads from the vaults to be released. So I ordered it from CDJapan and as usual I had to pay the import duty/tax handling fee, which I did yesterday and it turned up today (well packed), all-in-all its cost me around £102/US$130. Was it worth it?

Package: It is excellent, up to the usual Japanese standard, meticulous. The only shame is that the huge booklet is all in Japanese, it would be nice to read what is in it (has pictures of multi-track tape boxes). So I would say this was aimed at the market in Japan, not really with an eye on the export market.

Audio Quality: Again its a Japanese release, it is incredibly well done, I think that it is marginally better than the AF release, doesn't seem as 'muddy', I did compare a couple of tracks, so I suspect its from 1st generation Quad master tapes.

Music: Its Santana, its good, a typical 'self-indulgent' mid-70s live album, with some way out of tune vocals in places, but enjoyable.

Surround: Non-existent! You know where the very quiet audience are at the end of tracks, ........behind you, ............occasionally you hear a bit of high-frequency reverb/echo from a Cymbal or the like in the rears, otherwise its basically a stereo album. So whoever mixed this into Quad back in the day - didn't understand Quad, am I being harsh, I don't think so.

So back to the question was it worth it? As a surround package not to me. As an encouragement to boost the chances of more Santana studio Quads to be released, Yes. As a collector's package, Yes.

So what do I give it? I'll be generous its a 4 to 5, as its really an enhanced stereo release in my mind, if it had been a truly good Quad it would have been higher.

Well DuncanS that is very disappointing about the surround. I hated the AF stereo and looks like I won't be listening to this disc very much when it arrives around April 26th.

 

[par4ken]

This was still listed a a pre release last time I checked, I was waiting until they were in stock to order. Now I'm not so sure about it after hearing that the surround is almost non existent, price with shipping will be well over $100 CAD from CDJapan! I do have the SQ LP's but haven't listened to them in a long, long time and I don't remember how the surround was. Normally when I listen to Santana it's the first 3 albums and Borboletta, all of which feature excellent content and surround. I do like to support most things Quad but I'm not sure if I can justify the expense on this one, I'll wait for more comments to decide. The SQ version from Audio Fidelity is another option, or I might just stick with the LP's.

 

[4-earredwonder]

lol..!
fwiw I've reluctantly cancelled mine until some QQ members report back on the quality and nature of the surround mix. I can't justify £70+ on a pretty package with marginally better MCh than I can get out of the SQ LPs and the Surround Master. It shouldn't matter though if the Surround mix is lacking and sales of this one to Surround fans are poor as a result of word spreading of a lacklustre mix since sales to Surround devotees are so small as to be insignificant, is what we're told time and again.

SMART lad, Adam. Wish I had known LOTUS wasn't discrete but chalk to up to experience. I'm now the 'proud' [:yikes] owner of both the AF Stereo SACD remaster and will soon take possession of the Japanese non~discrete discrete remaster in pretty packaging.

But look on the bright [:sun] side: If this means we'll be getting more Japanese Santana QUAD remasters with real discrete elements.....so much the better.

And don't despair bud. Even though we'll always remain a niche market who slither along the baseboard of life......united we stand.

 

[4-earredwonder]

BUT...that doesn't mean you have to accept their policies as your own. You are still a consumer in a country that gives you certain rights. You can't change a bum product somebody sells you, but you CAN demand your money back.

And, on MY stereo? Eventually "The Games People Play"...fades out.

I know, I KNOW, Dilly D: Billy Shears never promised us a Rose Garden........but, OMG......THOSE DAMN THORNS!:yikes

 

[JonUrban]

Here is a "look at the wav files"!!

I based this on the input from an earlier post by winopener

Jon,
can't check anything now since i'm outta home, but it is a "you are there" mix, can't remember any special panning of instruments back and forth. Santana weren't touring with a quad concert setup as ELP on Pink Floyd, so intruments swirling wasn't expected. One thing that i remember been SQ-critical for the decoding of the LP and much better from the CD is in the intro of "Samba de Sausalito" when you have the burst of the bongos, on LP it was a distortion-party.
Best thing is to compare both version as decoding.

So here is a look at this section, the beginning of the track "Samba de Sausalito", where the bongo's blast at you from all 4 channels.

First, the Audio Fidelity SACD, decoded with a new SQ version Surround Master:



Then the wav files from the Sony Japan issued "discrete" SACD:




As you can see, neither one is hardly "discrete". The Sony SACD is way more defined, saved by not being sent through an ancient inadequate SQ encoder, but the original mix is clearly a "you are there, in the audience" mix, with a few exceptions (Notably the Bongo Blast).

As for listening, the Sony version sounds more defined as a concert mix, as less ambience finds its way into the rears. Plus it has the entire concert.

 

[JonUrban]

One more view looking at 2 minutes of the track together in Sound Forge 10. The top file is the Sony Japan SACD, the lower the AF decoded with the Surround Master.
As you can see, the SQ encoding adds a lot of crap to the rear channels. And as with many live concert quad mixes, the rears are pretty much the ambient sound you'd hear in the venue.

 

[GOS]

Oh man - I know this is a poll thread, but I can't help myself as I'm in South America on business and I know the set will be waiting for me at home in the USA. Regardless of comments, at minimum, I will be excited to open this cool item. I hope it sounds OK.

MODS - delete as needed. I don't want to detract from the poll.

 

[rtbluray]

Thanks for your honest assessment of the SACD, Jon.
I was originally interested in getting this SACD, but now I'm having second thoughts, not only because of the first reviews, but ever since I got my 2014 ILX (with DVDA) last weekend, I've been a lot more focused at filling the DVDA holes in my collection, while still also acquiring new Blu-Ray and DVD-V discs (which I can convert to DVDA or DTSCD for the Acura.)

@:

 

[par4ken]

As I mentioned in the poll thread I'm now unsure if I want to shell out over $100 for an ambient mix with little in the rears. The Silverline "From the Front Row " series comes to mind. But I will wait to here others thoughts before I decide. Just a thought. but with little rear channel activity the SQ record wouldn't sound much different than a plain stereo version would. In fact the encoding might add a bit of ambient life to the recording, is this the reason that Sony Japan chose it as a single inventory release?. Remember the critics of SQ didn't like the fogginess that SQ encoding could produce, a possible reason that most Quad was released dual inventory. I always maintained that single inventory (compatible) Quad (regardless of format) would of helped out with Quads survival!

 

[fizzywiggs41]

My goodness ! This is most revealing .

The "discrete" mix lacks some of the rear surround presented on the SQ SACD fr A.F.?

The bonus music tracks, should make this somewhat of a catch though . And as 4ear has mentioned time and again, this should help spur further Quad releases from the Sony Japanese Vault.


I guess it shows that a good decoder be it Tate or Surround Master can work wonders at times.



I wonder if further track by track testing of the 4.0 multi against the SQ copy are still required to establish a final decision ??
Just saying.




Good K-Reist ! What an expensive hobby we all have.

 

[JonUrban]

My goodness ! This is most revealing .

The "discrete" mix lacks some of the rear surround presented on the SQ SACD fr A.F.?........

Which tells you that whatever is back there should not be there at all. It's clearly the audio that got blended into the mix and shoved into the back via the SQ encoder. However, some people might like it better this way. It's more like playing the stereo track through your MATRIX or SURROUND button.

 

[fredblue]

curious as to what happens when you sum the two decoded rear channels of the Surround Master SQ version to mono?
(might give a closer rendition of what was originally encoded on the SQ LPs/AF SACDs.. and possibly get closer to the content on the discrete 4-ch tapes that are on this new Sony Japan SACD set, maybe.. hmm.)

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Which tells you that whatever is back there should not be there at all. It's clearly the audio that got blended into the mix and shoved into the back via the SQ encoder. However, some people might like it better this way. It's more like playing the stereo track through your MATRIX or SURROUND button.

Might be a good idea at this point, to marry up some of these last posts to the hirez thread on this discrete release ?

 

[fizzywiggs41]

curious as to what happens when you sum the two decoded rear channels of the Surround Master SQ version to mono?
(might give a closer rendition of what was originally encoded on the SQ LPs/AF SACDs.. and possibly get closer to the content on the discrete 4-ch tapes that are on this new Sony Japan SACD set, maybe.. hmm.)

You know FREDDIE OL' CHAP ; I'm finding this rather unusual to say the least. I mean I had the lp set back when, the Dutch copy and found it OK for the most part and through my Fosgate she had a bit in the rears but nothing too spectacular, better than nothing though.
My US CD though was slightly better , no , well a lot better. There was discernable surround , and I believe a track or more actually provided distinct panning to the rears ??

This could be a result of "Post Production". Sweeting the rear channels with the encoder . So on the discrete mix there is an absence of this quad panning.
One should assume both the discrete and matrix would utilize the same panning technique , but perhaps not in this instance.

 

[fredblue]

You know FREDDIE OL' CHAP ; I'm finding this rather unusual to say the least. I mean I had the lp set back when, the Dutch copy and found it OK for the most part and through my Fosgate she had a bit in the rears but nothing too spectacular, better than nothing though.
My US CD though was slightly better , no , well a lot better. There was discernable surround , and I believe a track or more actually provided distinct panning to the rears ??

This could be a result of "Post Production". Sweeting the rear channels with the encoder . So on the discrete mix there is an absence of this quad panning.
One should assume both the discrete and matrix would utilize the same panning technique , but perhaps not in this instance.

maybe they created a really tame surround mix in the first instance and then relied upon the lacklustre SQ encoders and decoders of the time to flesh things out a bit..