I must admit that I have never endorsed sound bars....my reason being that although better than just using the TV speakers... with the amount of money you would have to spend to buy the better models you could buy a better speaker setup that would sound superior....but I do realize for some with limited space or those that have the "spouse" factor(cosmetic appearance preference)to deal with...it's a good solution....when I saw THIS unit I must admit I'm curious...as I like the company...yes it's pricey...but I'm curious...
Sennheiser Soundbar with Dolby Atmos, DTS:X & MPEG-H to launch in May
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That thing looks like a beast.
That actually looks pretty cool.
Anything that keeps surround content moving forward, I’m all for. With things like Atmos and hi-tech soundbars becoming more common and mainstream, it can only help to increase interest in surround music.
It certainly can’t hurt our cause.
What made 2-channel stereo the standard wasn’t that it was “hi-fi”, but when it was easily able to be integrated into almost every crappy portable turntable and boom box.
These sound bars may never be what those who are willing to spend a bit extra time and money can do, but if it keeps more average Joes aware of and interested in surround sound and sound fields that are wider and deeper than 2-channel stereo?
That’s great news.
And I like Sennheiser products. I’d love to hear what this sounds like.
Anything that keeps surround content moving forward, I’m all for. With things like Atmos and hi-tech soundbars becoming more common and mainstream, it can only help to increase interest in surround music.
It certainly can’t hurt our cause.
What made 2-channel stereo the standard wasn’t that it was “hi-fi”, but when it was easily able to be integrated into almost every crappy portable turntable and boom box.
These sound bars may never be what those who are willing to spend a bit extra time and money can do, but if it keeps more average Joes aware of and interested in surround sound and sound fields that are wider and deeper than 2-channel stereo?
That’s great news.
And I like Sennheiser products. I’d love to hear what this sounds like.
That's a good point...the average consumer isn't going to get as deeply involved in audio as people in our hobby(on this forum) so anything that makes them more aware of the audio possibilities out there is a good thing...I've seen more interest by customers.... in my local Costco....in sound bars....and this is fueled by the lower prices of "big screen" TVs these days....over the years...the video and audio marriage has helped both entities..I can remember..."back in the day"...when the newest audio upgrade(VHS-HI FI) help boost sales....I can remember the demo of Footloose via VHS-HI FI drawing interest...
jimfisheye
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Don't buy shitbar speakers. There's always a better choice. Always.
Sound comes out... It's such a crude childish thing though. Fine for a "TV speaker" I suppose if it's $20 or something. Watching football in "surround"? Sure. Not for any kind of music listening though. You wouldn't be hearing surround imaged by listening to reflections bouncing off your room walls even if they were time corrected. (If it even had that ability.) Not for even casually serious music listening. "Atmos" is being used as a buzzword. You wouldn't even have proper 5.1 ability. This doesn't keep surround moving forward. This is where the "surround is stupid" reviews come from. A modest set of 5 two way speakers with 6" woofers (even without a sub) would wipe the floor with any soundbar.
Sound comes out... It's such a crude childish thing though. Fine for a "TV speaker" I suppose if it's $20 or something. Watching football in "surround"? Sure. Not for any kind of music listening though. You wouldn't be hearing surround imaged by listening to reflections bouncing off your room walls even if they were time corrected. (If it even had that ability.) Not for even casually serious music listening. "Atmos" is being used as a buzzword. You wouldn't even have proper 5.1 ability. This doesn't keep surround moving forward. This is where the "surround is stupid" reviews come from. A modest set of 5 two way speakers with 6" woofers (even without a sub) would wipe the floor with any soundbar.
Sound bars are the hipster product of choice for many consumers who really don't know any better. I believe its all due to the marketing hype we have been subjected to by the likes of Bose and others.
A lot of people really believe that somehow Bose has re-invented physics and can produce the sound of a 10" driver with a 3" cone using a "folded" port. Remember those commercials saying how you could replace a whole rack of Hi Fi equipment with a single Bose CD player?
A lot of people really believe that somehow Bose has re-invented physics and can produce the sound of a 10" driver with a 3" cone using a "folded" port. Remember those commercials saying how you could replace a whole rack of Hi Fi equipment with a single Bose CD player?
jimfisheye
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Soundbars are literally the biggest scam I've seen in consumer audio. No exaggeration. Like, those $1000 USB cables at least work. (The scam there is trying to sell shielding and such that would only apply to analog signals with a digital cable. And would be bs with even an analog cable.)
You can't set up a sound bar for listening. If you think you can reflect audio off your walls and ceiling to ricochet to the listening position intact... nope. You'll have distorted midrange frequencies only coming back. This is how you make room reverb after all.
These products are just so over the top childishly stupid scams.
Now "TV surround" with dialog isolated in the C channel, jingle music in stereo in the LR, and football crowd sounds in the surrounds... Yeah sure, distort some of that and bounce it off the walls if it amuses you. Don't pay more than $20 for that kind of playtime though.
Stereo: Speakers at points of an equilateral triangle with the listening position at the 3rd point.
Surround: Add the surrounds at 90 to 110 deg and a center. (Shortened version here!)
Can't do either of those with a soundbar. Not for music listening beyond novelty use.
I suppose you could disconnect the side and top firing speakers and listen in mono. We're getting into AM radio through dashboard speaker territory though however you look at it.
These are Worst Purchase products. Not for serious music listening. Not at all appropriate for surround music listening in any way shape or form.
Not hipster at all. Trashy scammy. This kind of scam really upsets me because it takes advantage of people and puts them even further away from experiencing surround sound.
Bose?
Better Off with Something Else
No highs, no lows? Must be Bose!
I've got to say I'm really disappointed to see the name Sennheiser attached to this garbage! They make some well respected microphones and useful headphones. (I have 3 MD-421s and a few pairs of HD280 headphones myself.) This is inexcusable.
You can't set up a sound bar for listening. If you think you can reflect audio off your walls and ceiling to ricochet to the listening position intact... nope. You'll have distorted midrange frequencies only coming back. This is how you make room reverb after all.
These products are just so over the top childishly stupid scams.
Now "TV surround" with dialog isolated in the C channel, jingle music in stereo in the LR, and football crowd sounds in the surrounds... Yeah sure, distort some of that and bounce it off the walls if it amuses you. Don't pay more than $20 for that kind of playtime though.
Stereo: Speakers at points of an equilateral triangle with the listening position at the 3rd point.
Surround: Add the surrounds at 90 to 110 deg and a center. (Shortened version here!)
Can't do either of those with a soundbar. Not for music listening beyond novelty use.
I suppose you could disconnect the side and top firing speakers and listen in mono. We're getting into AM radio through dashboard speaker territory though however you look at it.
These are Worst Purchase products. Not for serious music listening. Not at all appropriate for surround music listening in any way shape or form.
Not hipster at all. Trashy scammy. This kind of scam really upsets me because it takes advantage of people and puts them even further away from experiencing surround sound.
Bose?
Better Off with Something Else
No highs, no lows? Must be Bose!
I've got to say I'm really disappointed to see the name Sennheiser attached to this garbage! They make some well respected microphones and useful headphones. (I have 3 MD-421s and a few pairs of HD280 headphones myself.) This is inexcusable.
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Frogmort
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It says right there in that article:
"It uses up-firing and side-firing units to imitate top and rear speakers but even in a rectangular room sound objects that are supposed to come from behind rarely make it past the seating position. It cannot fully match discreet rear speakers."
No thank you.
"It uses up-firing and side-firing units to imitate top and rear speakers but even in a rectangular room sound objects that are supposed to come from behind rarely make it past the seating position. It cannot fully match discreet rear speakers."
No thank you.
jimfisheye
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Would someone consider a strong warning about scams like this very visible near the top of the forum webpage? Dead serious! This one truly warrants it.
All that has been said about these not being for "serious music listening" is absolutely true.
But it's also true that 2-channel stereo would probably have never become the standard had it not been for its ability to penetrate beyond hi-fi systems set up for "serious music listening". And quad failed in the 70s largely due to the fact that it was never able to get beyond being a niche product for serious music listeners.
Whatever crap systems other people listen to their music on for whatever reasons they believe it sounds better--real or fake or scam or otherwise? I'm fine with it if the end result is more product and titles being available for those of us who take our surround listening seriously.
Also, my guess is most of us started out on crap speakers systems. For some of us, this was the launching pad to better systems and more serious listening. For most of the rest of the world? They never really got beyond using crap systems.
But it's also true that 2-channel stereo would probably have never become the standard had it not been for its ability to penetrate beyond hi-fi systems set up for "serious music listening". And quad failed in the 70s largely due to the fact that it was never able to get beyond being a niche product for serious music listeners.
Whatever crap systems other people listen to their music on for whatever reasons they believe it sounds better--real or fake or scam or otherwise? I'm fine with it if the end result is more product and titles being available for those of us who take our surround listening seriously.
Also, my guess is most of us started out on crap speakers systems. For some of us, this was the launching pad to better systems and more serious listening. For most of the rest of the world? They never really got beyond using crap systems.
jimfisheye
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I do have a level of respect for low budget or entry level stuff. I also agree that a music mix should have a solid enough down the middle midrange content so as not to be ONLY accessible with audiophile equipment. I remember enjoying the heck out of a Beatles pre-recorded cassette of Abby Road in one of those portable piano key mono cassette players when I was little. These soundbars are different and cross the line into pure scam territory. There's always a better choice. And in some cases for much less money. There are cheap products and then there are facsimile kind of intentional scams. Soundbars are the latter.
Sorry if I'm soap-boxing a bit (or a lot) but this stuff leads people further away from music listening and just makes me go crazy!
Sorry if I'm soap-boxing a bit (or a lot) but this stuff leads people further away from music listening and just makes me go crazy!
You haven't heard it. So how can you state to what degree it's "garbage" or "inexcusable"?
Clearly there is a market niche for people who want something better and more immersive than just what comes out of their TV or just a pair of stereo speakers, but don't have the space or desire or whatever else to set up various speakers all around their living room.
And clearly this is a pretty big market niche as soundbars seem to be taking over the shelf space at places like Best Buy. Is this particular product that is selling for so much money a bit of a "hipster scam"? Possibly. But hey, that's their problem. Sometimes the best marketing feature of all is to attach a high price tag to something.
But Sennheiser makes good stuff and has no reputation for dealing in scams. It's also quite possible they are on to something in as much as this may be as good as a soundbar can be to this point. That soundbars aren't the same as 5 or 7 or 9 or 11 speakers spread all around the room is kind of a "duh". But that this might be something that sounds pretty good for what it is and, at the very least, might inspire some folks to move up to the next step? I can't see much wrong with that.
jimfisheye
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Because it isn't even possible to properly position the speakers. This is hard physics. Same way I can call bs on the $1000 USB cable example. I stand by my rant 100%
I'm also very familiar with sounds ricocheting off reflective surfaces (walls and such). It's... something to be avoided in sound reproduction! It's room reverb! Great for some instruments and some styles of performance. Required even. Your mortal enemy in sound reproduction though.
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To properly position the speakers for WHAT?
Your complaint seems to be that a soundbar isn't 5 or more speakers spread all around the room. Well, yeah. Pretty much anyone can see that simply by looking at one.
Remember that these aren't really intended to be, nor are marketed as, music listening systems. They are for movies and TV for which what is happening in the rears is mostly just sound effects anyway. So whether the gunshots and footsteps actually come from behind the listener or somewhere else--as long as they sound as if they are coming from a different place than right in front of the listener, that's really all they are trying to achieve here.
At best, I see these things as being a gateway for people who become inspired to have better systems that do more. At worst, they get sold to people who have no desire for a "real" surround sound system anyway, so it's hard to see what negative effect it has on those folks.
As far as to what degree soundbars really do much of anything regarding music playback? Again, hopefully a somewhat wider soundscape inspires some people to become more serious about surround music listening. But what sort of music listening will they be doing? Playing some streaming stereo music through some sort of surround processing software? It's not like there are going to be many people who buy a soundbar and then pick up that 5.1 of The White Album to play through it.
So it's hard for me to see how this stuff puts anyone further away from experiencing surround sound.
There are lots of good points here on both sided of the fence. I have no fondness for sound bars, and no dog in this fight.
My main objection to them is the marketing hype that surrounds them (look I made a pun!). I believe some of the descriptions and claims made do indeed edge into scam territory. My example of Bose marketing is an extreme. But take a look at some of the packaging. They do make them sound like bonified hi-fi products. There is certainly no disclaimer that it isn't as good as a true system. And the audio-ignorant masses will believe the hype. That's the extent of the "scam" aspect of it for me... misrepresenting it as a hi fi system, which admittedly not all manufacturers do.
The fact is they do sound significantly better than what typically comes in a modern TV, even the cheap ones. For your average non-audiophile consumer, that may well be good enough. My lady's brother just got a $120 Samsung sound bar at a local big box store. He thinks its the greatest thing. It IS a very significant step up in sound quality from the TV without a doubt, and you do get some semblance of base from the 5" sub module it uses. And he can stream music from his phone like its a stereo! It's a hell of a lot better than listening to the phone! He's happy as a clam with it. And yes, I've let him hear my system. It doesn't matter to him, he has no interest. He couldn't stay seated in one place long enough to listen to and appreciate a real system anyway. He just wants a better sound when he watches Game of Thrones.
If Sennheiser wants to market the mother of all sound bars... why not? It may be the worlds best sounding sound bar. And in some installations it might be quite good and actually better a set of small monitors. And the well-to-do audio-ignorant types and their significant others (who of course would despise real audio equipment being on public display in the living room to begin with) will be told that Sennheiser is a high end brand, and they can boast about it to their equally audio-ignorant friends and relatives. And marvel at it when they watch a movie together. They don't know what they are missing, they don't care, Sennheiser makes money, the market for sound bars expands. Pretty soon the Chinese will be exporting 13 driver sound bars for 1/3 the price.
Will it spur more interest in surround? Sure, maybe. I don't see how it hurts.
Will it start a great migration to get consumers on a path to buying MCH music? I doubt it. They'd listen to it on that bar and compare it to plain old stereo and figure there's not much difference. Because on a sound bar, there probably isn't. But knowing they have the capability to play it may well be a redeeming factor.
I say buy one if it makes you happy and it fits the situation Just don't tell me its a hi fi system in a shoe box. I know better.
My main objection to them is the marketing hype that surrounds them (look I made a pun!). I believe some of the descriptions and claims made do indeed edge into scam territory. My example of Bose marketing is an extreme. But take a look at some of the packaging. They do make them sound like bonified hi-fi products. There is certainly no disclaimer that it isn't as good as a true system. And the audio-ignorant masses will believe the hype. That's the extent of the "scam" aspect of it for me... misrepresenting it as a hi fi system, which admittedly not all manufacturers do.
The fact is they do sound significantly better than what typically comes in a modern TV, even the cheap ones. For your average non-audiophile consumer, that may well be good enough. My lady's brother just got a $120 Samsung sound bar at a local big box store. He thinks its the greatest thing. It IS a very significant step up in sound quality from the TV without a doubt, and you do get some semblance of base from the 5" sub module it uses. And he can stream music from his phone like its a stereo! It's a hell of a lot better than listening to the phone! He's happy as a clam with it. And yes, I've let him hear my system. It doesn't matter to him, he has no interest. He couldn't stay seated in one place long enough to listen to and appreciate a real system anyway. He just wants a better sound when he watches Game of Thrones.
If Sennheiser wants to market the mother of all sound bars... why not? It may be the worlds best sounding sound bar. And in some installations it might be quite good and actually better a set of small monitors. And the well-to-do audio-ignorant types and their significant others (who of course would despise real audio equipment being on public display in the living room to begin with) will be told that Sennheiser is a high end brand, and they can boast about it to their equally audio-ignorant friends and relatives. And marvel at it when they watch a movie together. They don't know what they are missing, they don't care, Sennheiser makes money, the market for sound bars expands. Pretty soon the Chinese will be exporting 13 driver sound bars for 1/3 the price.
Will it spur more interest in surround? Sure, maybe. I don't see how it hurts.
Will it start a great migration to get consumers on a path to buying MCH music? I doubt it. They'd listen to it on that bar and compare it to plain old stereo and figure there's not much difference. Because on a sound bar, there probably isn't. But knowing they have the capability to play it may well be a redeeming factor.
I say buy one if it makes you happy and it fits the situation Just don't tell me its a hi fi system in a shoe box. I know better.
Well sure there is a lot marketing involved in selling sound bars.....but there is the same kind of marketing in the sales of audiophile equipment...thinking of your example of a rack of Hi Fi equipment vs a single Bose CD player...now since I'm one who thinks that Bose stop being relevant "back in the day"...let's take another example that people thought was foolish...at one time a computer filled up an entire room...now you can perform those functions on a small instrument.....a smartphone...no physics were re-invented...but the effect was dramatic and thought to be impossible...back in the day...
I don't think "hipsters" are the target of the marketing...they would probably be happy with a tablet or smartphone...I believe it's the "not too tech savvy" buyer who isn't sure how to hook up a real surround system and doesn't want to learn...or his wife/girlfriend doesn't want wires all over the place....
Soundbars have come a long way...a few years ago I heard one by B&W in the Magnolia section of Best Buy and it was pretty good...just pricey...if the objection to a sound bar is that it produces "pseudo" surround...it's guilty as charged...but so does a legit sound system when you use the functions on your AVR to create a fake surround sound.....and although they are wonderful and I might get one...so does the Involve Surround Master...it's fake too...BUT it's embraced by a lot of the "surround community"...so those people(the audio-ignorant masses) that you think are being "duped" because they purchased a sound bar......aren't we(the audiophile community) buying a similar device?....how much smarter are we
It's ironic that this thread was getting some attention when I just started working on my new Denon...I received it on the 23rd and I haven't even started the setup yet...I've spent most of this time...almost 2 weeks...thinking of a way to re-arrange my system....which involved adding another cabinet/rack and now it's probably going to force me to buy new speaker wires...due to length problems...moving area rugs...etc...etc...etc....I get less enjoyment out of these setups...and to be candid...after this change...I might seriously consider something like a soundbar in the future...the fun I used to have with new equipment....has left the building
can't argue with any of this.
I don't pay much attention to the marketing of soundbars, to be sure. (Not a fan either) But my impression is that no one actually thinks they are the same as a surround-sound system with speakers all around the room, do they? Everyone is pretty well aware that these are simply something the creates a facsimile of the same effect, right?
But maybe that's just my already-knowledgeable presumptions at work. If they are telling people they can do exactly the same thing as a full surround-sound system, then yes. They are being scammed.
Looking again at the Sennheiser ad? They do come pretty close to being dishonest, IMO. They call this a "3D spatial experience" and say that it "creates a 5.1.4 home entertainment experience". They say it is "immersive". But the one word they don't seem to use anywhere in the literature is "Surround". Seems they are definitely counting on a few people not really paying that much attention to the different terms or not really knowing the difference.
As far as the comparison to things like $1000 USB cables? Well, the scam there is that these are actually no better than a $10 cable. The comparison here would be if Sennheiser is selling this for $2500 when the reality is that it sound no better than the $120 one. My guess is it probably sounds a lot better. For that much money it BETTER sound pretty damned good and be what most would consider "hi-fi" even IF the output is something in between 2-channel stereo and a real 5.1 surround sound system.
As far as music goes? I'd be interested to hear what it does with it. If you can play a 5.1 disc through it and it creates a sound-field that is impressive to the average listener without making a complete muck of what the standard stereo mix sounded like? Then there's a CHANCE (albeit a very small one, IMO) that this could inspire some folks to be more curious about what REAL 5.1 music sounds likes.
But honestly? Even if the sound of a 5.1 disc through it sucks and they simply BELIEVE it is better (or even if truly really like it) -- if that means more MCH music might be sold? I'm all for it.
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I'm not really an advocate of sound bars...at least not yet...but since you mentioned advertising being close to dishonest...what about the car companies...they use the "surround" word when it's only 2 channels...one top of the line Bose systems in a Cadillac had 32 speakers and just 2 channels...nobody calls them on it...I guess they could say the music "surrounds" the passengers...that's just contemporary marketing...for various products..
jimfisheye
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I was going for the comparison that the stupid expensive USB cable still did the full job of a USB cable. All the ones and zeros got to the other end intact just like the $10 USB cable. Whereas the soundbar will not deliver the discrete experience of 5 even semi-properly placed individual speakers no matter what you try to do with it. (Again, physics. You truly can't ricochet sound off a wall and have it remain full spectrum as required for music program.)
It's frustrating because there are more frugal options that DO deliver. Five little speakers as I said. You get a surprisingly efficient system dynamic range with even 5 modest little speakers with a surround mix spread out to them in addition to the spacial elements. Many people would be impressed with just that if they had a chance to hear it. It's double frustrating that some will dismiss surround as not really all that different than stereo because of this crap. "I've got a surround system (meaning a soundbar). Meh."
You can lead a horse to water...
Yeah, some people will never, and I mean NEVER set up speakers properly even if you give them to them for free. Heck, you could go to their house and set up their system and the next day find they stacked all 5 speakers in one corner because it "looked better". I get that. Maybe one of these thingies would be net better than that? The likes of us just need to step back from those scenarios and move on of course. But the folks out there who would actually appreciate this golden age of audio we're in if they hadn't been bamboozled by Worst Purchase products and blown their budget on this crap. That's what frustrates me and make me say "Hey! Don't buy that! Check this out instead! It's better and 1/5th the price!" I think that would generate more interest in 5.1 music releases at the end of the day. It has to actually be heard to be believed after all!
It's frustrating because there are more frugal options that DO deliver. Five little speakers as I said. You get a surprisingly efficient system dynamic range with even 5 modest little speakers with a surround mix spread out to them in addition to the spacial elements. Many people would be impressed with just that if they had a chance to hear it. It's double frustrating that some will dismiss surround as not really all that different than stereo because of this crap. "I've got a surround system (meaning a soundbar). Meh."
You can lead a horse to water...
Yeah, some people will never, and I mean NEVER set up speakers properly even if you give them to them for free. Heck, you could go to their house and set up their system and the next day find they stacked all 5 speakers in one corner because it "looked better". I get that. Maybe one of these thingies would be net better than that? The likes of us just need to step back from those scenarios and move on of course. But the folks out there who would actually appreciate this golden age of audio we're in if they hadn't been bamboozled by Worst Purchase products and blown their budget on this crap. That's what frustrates me and make me say "Hey! Don't buy that! Check this out instead! It's better and 1/5th the price!" I think that would generate more interest in 5.1 music releases at the end of the day. It has to actually be heard to be believed after all!
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