Should Dutton Vocalion avoid releasing SACDs of Quads with inferior mixes?

[key_wiz]

I say yes.

I view much of the work Mr. Dutton is doing as archival. Good, bad or otherwise, these mixes should be transferred to digital in as best quality as they can be. If they were acceptable to release once before, why not again? We will still be free to pan them, not buy them, throw them in the trash, etc.

 

[ubertrout]

The problem for me with the latest output rom DV,is the music.Don't care if the mix is good or not if I don't like the music.

This complaint tends to be from the same people who want the same 20 or so titles that clearly aren't going to happen easily except perhaps in a megabox. I'm not sure if you fall into this box, but the complaint is misguided to the point of being counterproductive. D-V has released quite a bit, what exactly else is there to look for except the super-popular material that people have been asking for on SACD for 20 years to no avail.

 

[4-earredwonder]

This complaint tends to be from the same people who want the same 20 or so titles that clearly aren't going to happen easily except perhaps in a megabox. I'm not sure if you fall into this box, but the complaint is misguided to the point of being counterproductive. D-V has released quite a bit, what exactly else is there to look for except the super-popular material that people have been asking for on SACD for 20 years to no avail.

I couldn't agree more ubertrout. IMO, D~V has released [or SO I THOUGHT] something for everyone especially within the parameters of WHAT IS CANNILY AVAILABLE FOR RELEASE and also what is deemed unusable due to deterioration of the analogue masters.

That they've released approximately 100 QUAD titles in the last few years at prices UNIMAGINABLE, especially in today's price~gouging market and in such quality should garner CHEERS and not JEERS from the Surround community.

Yes, it would be nice if Warner/Rhino signed on but methinks their licensing fees would be too prohibitive for D~V to continue to release their QUAD SACDs at reasonable prices.

And as far as 'megaboxes' appearing .....I already broached that subject with WARNER and the answer was ..... it would entail a licensing NIGHTMARE to in any way release a potpourri of diverse titles in a box set!

 

[The Rang]

Even if of the 4.0 mix is “iffy” , if the 2.0 is top notch then it’s worth releasing IMHO

 

[perzon57]

This complaint tends to be from the same people who want the same 20 or so titles that clearly aren't going to happen easily except perhaps in a megabox. I'm not sure if you fall into this box, but the complaint is misguided to the point of being counterproductive. D-V has released quite a bit, what exactly else is there to look for except the super-popular material that people have been asking for on SACD for 20 years to no avail.

I'm not waiting for some specific titles,just tites with music I like.I've bought many DV titles so far,many berceuse of glowing
reviews here on QQ,just to play theme once.So now I listen to them on Spotify first.
Many of titles are unknown to me as many of the acts was not popular in Norway when I grew up in the 60s and 70s.
But I've also discovered acts like Rick Derringer,Deodato and Chase which I play a lot.

 

[ubertrout]

I'm not waiting for some specific titles,just tites with music I like.I've bought many DV titles so far,many berceuse of glowing
reviews here on QQ,just to play theme once.So now I listen to them on Spotify first.
Many of titles are unknown to me as many of the acts was not popular in Norway when I grew up in the 60s and 70s.
But I've also discovered acts like Rick Derringer,Deodato and Chase which I play a lot.

That's totally fair - and I've made clear that I'm not personally a fan of everything they've released - but I'm glad they're released everything they've released.

 

[skherbeck]

I say Yes, release everything and let the market determine whether it’s a worthwhile venture. That being said, I’ve bought every single DV release even though I know almost nothing about the music because the quality of the mixes has been consistently great... if we start getting “double stereo” mixes, I for one would stop pre-ordering everything and wait for reviews.

 

[wheeler98]

When Marshall was cranking these things out, there were many titles I advised him NOT to do, for the same reasons as stated above. If you pull an obscure title out of the dust bin to release it because there is a quad mix, it better be one with a good quad mix as if the stereo folks don't want it, and the quad folks think the mix sucks, you are going to end up with a lot of unsold discs, which makes the bottom line very bad.

Ummm... which titles did you tell Marshall to NOT do?

 

[Philip Spinner]

I vote no. There are actually very few lousy quad mixes on Q8 by popular artists. Why waste time with those when there are so many really good ones still to do. Strike while the iron is hot.

 

[Q-Eight]

Well, the Raiders' Hard & Heavy Quad mix was nothing stellar - and they had to remix two tracks just to complete it! But I'm still glad they released it. Now it's out there for people to enjoy - warts and missing overdubs all! I say: why not? In all reality, there aren't a whole lot of "really good" Quad mixes. 99% of them are flawed in some way.

 

[IMachine]

No! Why should they?

 

[skherbeck]

Well, the Raiders' Hard & Heavy Quad mix was nothing stellar - and they had to remix two tracks just to complete it! But I'm still glad they released it. Now it's out there for people to enjoy - warts and missing overdubs all! I say: why not? In all reality, there aren't a whole lot of "really good" Quad mixes. 99% of them are flawed in some way.

I actually thought the two new remixes sounded the best... too bad they didn’t remix the whole thing, lol.

 

[ubertrout]

I actually thought the two new remixes sounded the best... too bad they didn’t remix the whole thing, lol.

I've noticed this a lot actually, and others have too - the new mixes on DV releases often sound much better than the vintage mixtapes. In many cases I'm guessing the multitracks were essentially untouched once the masters were created, and the tapes are in better shape. Compare the mix on the Prokofiev DV disc (vintage quad mix for Alexander Nevsky, new quad mix for Lt. Kije) - it's not a subtle difference.

 

[fredblue]

I've noticed this a lot actually, and others have too - the new mixes on DV releases often sound much better than the vintage mixtapes. In many cases I'm guessing the multitracks were essentially untouched once the masters were created, and the tapes are in better shape. Compare the mix on the Prokofiev DV disc (vintage quad mix for Alexander Nevsky, new quad mix for Lt. Kije) - it's not a subtle difference.

not only should the multitracks be fresh as daisies, i doubt the Quad mastertapes will have seen much if any action since the 70's either.

i believe there's more to it than that to account for any perceived fidelity differences, maybe they're inherent in the Quad mix itself which may have been engineered with certain EQ or NR etc., that isn't on the original multitrack recording or even the Stereo mix.

also, its maybe worth just taking a step back and considering that the alternative sources for a lot of the Sony owned CBS & RCA Quads that Vocalion are tackling now would be SQ or CD-4 LPs on mostly average at best vinyl pressings or Q8 eight tracks with all the limitations of those legacy Quad formats.

any Vocalion remaster from Quad mastertapes should naturally be a step up from any SQ/CD-4/Q8 release that's come before and that has been my experience time and again.

 

[fredblue]

Well, the Raiders' Hard & Heavy Quad mix was nothing stellar - and they had to remix two tracks just to complete it! But I'm still glad they released it. Now it's out there for people to enjoy - warts and missing overdubs all! I say: why not? In all reality, there aren't a whole lot of "really good" Quad mixes. 99% of them are flawed in some way.

99% of Quad mixes are flawed..? wow.. i'd like to know what the 1% are that you consider to be perfect!

granted a fair bit of rubbish got put out in Quad (mixes and content).. but 99 out of 100 Quads, that's a lot of subpar mixes!!

 

[DuncanS]

I've just listened to a few tracks from The Raiders Hard 'n' Heavy, didn't think the mix was that bad, the 'comedy bits' at the beginning of a few tracks are though! Also reading Dave's (great) notes I see that they do a cover of an Easybeats song "Come In, You'll Get Pneumonia" who were a band which featured the elder Young brother (George) whose younger siblings (Malcom & Angus) formed AC/DC!

 

[par4ken]

Flawed mixes are a mater of taste. Some don't like full center vocals or drums in the rear, or excessive panning effects. I like it all, newer 5.1 mixes on the other hand that put only a bit of ambiance in the rears are what I would consider flawed mixes. If DV has ever released a flawed surround mix I haven't heard it yet. Discrete mixes of previously encoded material have got to sound better than the original release. SACD sound quality is much superior to CD-4 OR Q8 as well. Maybe less than stellar stereo releases should not be re-released as people will say what's the point I'm going back to mono!

But don't bother with upmixes.

 

[Q-Eight]

I actually thought the two new remixes sounded the best... too bad they didn’t remix the whole thing, lol.

Me too. To finally hear "Mr. Sun, Mr. Moon" in a real, 4-channel mix was pretty cool. "Without You" it seemed they were trying to emulate the other mixes on the tape, but "Mr. Sun, Mr. Moon" is the shining star in a beautiful 4-corner mix with a very balanced front center stage.

99% of Quad mixes are flawed..? wow.. i'd like to know what the 1% are that you consider to be perfect!

granted a fair bit of rubbish got put out in Quad (mixes and content).. but 99 out of 100 Quads, that's a lot of subpar mixes!!

Well, yes - they are all flawed in some way. "Lady Marmalade" by Labelle is flawed with it's funny drum situation with the drum kit split between FL and BR. Had the drums been across the front, it'd be a great mix. But as it is, it's flawed.

"Indian Reservation" is flawed with both bass and drums in the rear channels but some drum kit tracks are in FL and a tympani or kettle drum in FR. Not only that, but it lacks the subtle drum pan that is present in the stereo mix during each break.

I could write a thesis paper on Sly & the Family Stones' Greatest Hits or Janis Joplins' Pearl. There are MANY things I would change about those mixes. But remember, I love Quad for it's warts and all. Why else would I be on a Quad message board? There's something very wabi-sabi about the whole Quad phenomenon. (finding acceptance with the imperfect)

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Me too. To finally hear "Mr. Sun, Mr. Moon" in a real, 4-channel mix was pretty cool. "Without You" it seemed they were trying to emulate the other mixes on the tape, but "Mr. Sun, Mr. Moon" is the shining star in a beautiful 4-corner mix with a very balanced front center stage.



Well, yes - they are all flawed in some way. "Lady Marmalade" by Labelle is flawed with it's funny drum situation with the drum kit split between FL and BR. Had the drums been across the front, it'd be a great mix. But as it is, it's flawed.

"Indian Reservation" is flawed with both bass and drums in the rear channels but some drum kit tracks are in FL and a tympani or kettle drum in FR. Not only that, but it lacks the subtle drum pan that is present in the stereo mix during each break.

I could write a thesis paper on Sly & the Family Stones' Greatest Hits or Janis Joplins' Pearl. There are MANY things I would change about those mixes. But remember, I love Quad for it's warts and all. Why else would I be on a Quad message board? There's something very wabi-sabi about the whole Quad phenomenon. (finding acceptance with the imperfect)

I for one feel mixes are very subjective, as an example I enjoy having the drums in the rear channels, from an on-stage band perspective, that's where they would be. And wouldn't it be boring if every recording had the same formulaic mix? The important thing is that the releases that are being put out by Dutton Vocalion, are by general consensus here, the absolute best we'll ever hear these classic Quad recordings.

 

[Q-Eight]

I for one feel mixes are very subjective, as an example I enjoy having the drums in the rear channels, from an on-stage band perspective, that's where they would be. And wouldn't it be boring if every recording had the same formulaic mix? The important thing is that the releases that are being put out by Dutton Vocalion, are by general consensus here, the absolute best we'll ever hear these classic Quad recordings.

I like drums in the rear, too! Ten Years After "Baby Woncha Let Me Rock & Roll you" ? Absolute bliss. I love just listening to the rear channels by themselves!

But with the Raiders and Janis Joplin title, they've split it up a little too much. Pearl has drums setup like: Room Mics in FL, Overheads and Cymbals in FR, Kicker in BR and Snare in BL. That to me pushes the gimmicky level up a notch. Nobody sits in the middle of a drum kit. The way I mix, primary percussion up front, secondary percussion in the rear. You're still surrounded in sound but you're put in the middle of the band.