Quad LP/Tape Poll Simon and Garfunkel: Bridge Over Troubled Water[SQ/Q8]

[JonUrban]

A kind forum member loaned me a copy of the quad reel (yes reel) of this album, so I've been going through it in depth on the PC. I must say that over the past 20 or so years, I haven't listened to this album, stereo or quad, because quite frankly I have been totally burned out on it over time. The songs (especially the hits) have been so saturated in my head that I could barely listen to some of them in quad on my PC! (Cecilia, El Condor Pasa)

Anyway, since I had such a pristine source to deal with, I figured I'd spend a few minutes and detail some things about the mix, track by track:

BRIDGE OVER TROUBLED WATER
The first part of the song, up until "Sail on silver girl", the track is pretty much stereo with a hall effect. However, the effect on Garfunkel's voice is very clear and cathedral like, the piano echoing in the cavernous hall. The remainder of the tune pretty much follows suit, although it sounds like the string section is spread across the channels, with the left rear getting a bit more violin section than the others. Although this is a powerful tune and a gem of the catalog, this one has a pretty ambient surround mix. Nothing will really jump out at you, except the chamber effect.

EL CONDOR PASA
This one also starts out with an ambient mix. Pretty much the same thing going on in all 4 speakers. Paul Simon's first verses are heard in the center of the sound stage, so his voice comes from all 4 speakers. When Garfunkel sings the "I think I'd rather sail away", he is exclusively in the fronts. The track continues in the rears. Other than this one example, the rest of the tune follows the ambient trail. It's a shame, because there are a lot of unusual instrumentations going on in this tune, yet they're all bunched up in the phantom center listening area. You can't pick out a flute or a drum in any one particular channel.

CECILIA
Hand claps and percussion start this one off, again in all 4 speakers. Then we get some "quad"! The first time through the intro chorus, the vocal is only in the fronts. Second time, it widens to all 4 speakers, giving the vocals a bigger effect. The guitar(s) are in the front, the percussion is mostly in the rears. The counter melody line from Garfunkel, while one might expect to come from the rears only, again comes from all around. Then, it gets good!
During an instrumental section, there is a very cool xylophone solo in the rears only, with some whistling and joy, while the guitar and acoustic guitar solo are in the fronts. In the quad version, stuff going on in the rears stands out very distinctly as opposed to the stereo version we're used to. This continues to the end of the song, with the vocals echoing in the rears with the xylophone and whistling and thumping.

KEEP THE CUSTOMER SATISFIED
Throughout the song, the vocals are echoed in the rears. However, the rears have their own info in them, in that the bass, the organ and piano are there and can be heard very clearly - thus hearing things that are lost in the stereo mix. From the middle to the end of the tune, when the brass comes in, it's mostly anchored in the rears, with some sections of the lower brass heard clearer than the trumpets, but it's not exclusive to the rears, as the brass is "echoed" in the fronts. I guess that moves it more to the middle of the listening room. Still, if you kill the backs, you still hear brass.

SO LONG FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT
Now this is the most impressive quad mix on the album yet. It's beautiful! We all know that Paul did not want to do this song this way, and Art argued with him and that led to their demise as a duo, but I've always liked this song.
If you listen solo to the rears, you get the excellent orchestral track (which is also in the fronts, and can hear the "score" of the tune quite well. Paul's vocals on the bridge "Architects may come and....." is solo in the rears, which pops out as an attention getter. That's the only vocal, echoed or not, in the rears. The flute solo is in the fronts with a tiny bit of reflection in the rear left. A mellow tune with a nice quad mix.

THE BOXER
The Boxer starts out in the fronts exclusively. The guitars are there in the fronts, nicely split in stereo. The rears have the vocal tracks at a reduced volume by themselves, allowing you to hear the harmonies without any other instrumental backing. Once the bass drum and percussion comes, it's solely in the rears. After the words "I took some comfort there, la la la", there's an instrumental section with a solo. The fronts has the solo in what almost sounds like someone playing a saw(!). The same solo is in the rears, however, it's done by a solo trumpet. Very cool! As the song continues, the guitars in the fronts are clear as a bell! The rears continue with the thumping percussion track. Towards the end, there are some strange "Lie lie lie's" coming from the rears, in a very high angelic voice from Art, and a very very low voice from Paul. The big orchestral build up comes from all 4 channels. The song fades out with some strange sounds I don't remember hearing in the stereo version, almost like a "la da dee"(??) from Art!

BABY DRIVER
"Stereo Handclaps" in the rears at the start, the lead vocal echoed in the rears as well. You can hear the piano nicely in the rear left. The vocal "sound effect" from Paul "broom ba pa ba ba" is rears exclusive, and there are chorus vocals in the rears to fill it out. Of course, there's the race car driving around the 4 speaker sound field, just like an old quad sound effects record! The sax solo's are strange, in that the main sax is in the front left and rear right, while a counter sax is in the front right. The song ends with more quad race car and race track effects!

ONLY LIVING BOY IN NEW YORK
Paul wrote the song about Art (the Tom from "Tom and Jerry") going off to film "Carnal Knowledge). The song starts primarily in the fronts, with the rears getting echo and organ. All guitars are only in the front. The harmony to "half of the time we're gone..." is in the rears, sung by both performers. The background 'ahs' throughout the song are also in the rears, but at a very reduced level. Also, the "here I am's" are also in the rears, but again very low, almost like it's Art saying I'm still here, but far away. A nice effect.

WHY DON'T YOU WRITE ME
Piano by itself with some foot stomps and echo vocal in the rears. Everything else in the fronts. Nice piano work!! Then, the "ooohs" are heard in the rears exclusively, throughout the remainder of the song. The trombone solo is in all 4 speakers, faded towards the rears.


BYE BYE LOVE
This is a live tune, or as I recall a faked live tune. The rears are pretty much audience with the vocals echoed in a stadium like sound. The claps are strictly in the rears, and they are in perfect time (they must be fake). They maintain themselves throughout the entire song. In the middle of the song, there's a "waa hoo" of sorts, with some laughter from the audience. Not sure what that's all about. The applause comes from all 4 channels.

SONG FOR THE ASKING
As the applause fades, the song starts in the fronts. The rears have the string quartet and no vocals. Very nice. It ends with a harmony vocal in the rears with Paul humming the tune. A nice end to a decent quad album. Historic in music, decent in quad.

 

[EMB]

Great review, Jon! :sun Can't think of many albums I'd go to the trouble of sonically detailing that much (and this isn't one of them, though it IS an enjoyable collection).

"Cecilia" has an interesting history, mixwise. In order of release: stereo Lp mix, mono single mix, quad mix, alt. stereo mix from S&G'S GH. Those are the only four I know of, though you never know, might be a fifth.

The mono single mix seems to be preferred by almost anyone who has heard it, if only because it really gives punch and feeling to the song, an edge not heard in any other version. Quite fun, really. Compared to it, the stereo is a bit limp, the percussion not as direct and powerful. The second stereo version, however, is might-as-well-be-mono until the last portion beginning with 'jubilation, she loves me again,' when it turns into obvious stereo. It's been speculated this one's the 'stereo single version,' but the only copies I have of this one--the US stock and DJ, Canadian stock--are mono. If it was meant as a DJ stereo mix, I haven't found a copy to verify that, let alone why it made its way onto the '72 comp.

As for the quad, it's a lot of fun, and offers a lot of detail not readily heard anywhere else. But like the stereo, it lacks a certain glee and raucous fun only the single (IMO) captured.

Like Jon, I'm kinda burned out by this one, though I never tire of "The Boxer" (which has three mixes--original 45 mono, stereo Lp, quad Lp). It's a fave quad mix of mine, especially the finish, though there is something about the compression of the mono 45 that is thunderous compared to the relative bombast of the stereo and quad mixes (quad being better than the stereo here).

ED

 

[mtgc]

I have this album and rate it a solid 10. Simon and Garfunkel are two of my favorites from this time frame. Just to listen to their vocals and harmony take me back to a time when things seemed to be better.


MTGC (Michael)

 

[surroundophile]

I also have this as a DTS copy. However, I would love to hear how this reel came into existance, since Columbia never issued any quad reels!

 

[JonUrban]

For anyone who wants to hear the xylophone solo from Cecelia, here it is in glorius MP3 Stereo sound, rear channels only. It's 27 seconds, so it should not be a violation of anyone's rights. I highly encourage all of you to go to Amazon and buy the stereo CD or eBay and buy the SQ LP or Q8.

You can play it right from here by clicking, or right click and download.

JUBILATION





QQ

 

[Q-Eight]

I also have this as a DTS copy. However, I would love to hear how this reel came into existance, since Columbia never issued any quad reels!

Indeed. What's the story on a Columbia Quad Reel?

 

[EMB]

You guys are forgetting the 'don't ask, don't tell' rule....

ED

 

[Q-Eight]

You guys are forgetting the 'don't ask, don't tell' rule....

ED

So, Five-Finger Discount at the Columbia Garage Sale, huh?

 

[JonUrban]

There was a quad collector in Pennsylvania in the '70s by the name of Mike Robin. He somehow got access to about 40 quad master reels of some Columbia titles. I don't have a complete list of them, but most are from the beginning of the quad era. The titles of note are the first 2 BS&T LPs, Pearl, Sly Hits, Bridge, Ten Years After, and others. Some of these have different quad mixes than the released offerings, and some are from titles that never saw the light of day.

It seems (and I was there and I missed it) that Mike sold copies of these reels to quad collectors. In doing so, he created a black market of reels and copies of reels that made the rounds. Some folks here have copies, some have the 2nd and 3rd and later generation copies. Only those that have the first gen copies, made by Mike, are the ones that sound amazing, even after all of this year. These are recorded on Maxell reels, and have a slip inside the box with a typed title and sequence number in them.

To the best of my knowledge, none of these have ever sold on eBay.

I wish I knew more, but I've asked other old time quaddies and the general consensus is that most folks have forgotten the story. Can anyone elaborate. If they do, I'll move this post to a new thread.

 

[Eggplant]

It's too bad this was the only Simon and Garfunkel quad, and not just because there's only one. I believe this was Roy Halee's first quad mix, and it shows. His later mixes of S&G solo efforts are among the era's best, but this is not one of them.

Jon has done a pretty good track-by-track, so I'll just comment on a couple of tracks.

The title track, like too many others, just isn't very quad. But my biggest complaint is with "The Boxer". The song Rolling Stone picked as #105 of the 500 Greatest Songs of All Time deserves better than this mix.

I don't like lead vocals in all channels as a rule, but here the rears have them full volume and dry. I don't get the point of this. Beyond the fun to be had listening to them solo, how does this create a coherent soundfield? In his 2001 Mix interview, Halee admitted that he learned everything through experimentation, thought "not everything worked out." True enough.

What is this song's signature? The "lie-la-lie" refrain, punctuated with a sharp bang. I've always imagined that being a boxer's punch, because that's what it sounds like on the stereo version: crisp, hard, and LOUD. Not here. Instead, we get limp, diffuse, and faraway -- a kid throwing a rock in a trash can three blocks down. Why was this done? I've never heard of a need to keep the dynamics down for an SQ record, even early ones, but who knows. Drummer Hal Blaine got the sound by hitting his snare on a high-rise on 7th Ave in New York, and thought it sounded like a canon. Whatever the case, it removes one of the most dramatic elements and, for me, wrecks the track.

The ending doesn't so much build as jump. The gradual, dramatic buildup of the original is replaced by a virtual absence of dynamics. Additional tracks suddenly come from nowhere, like Garfunkel's loud falsetto from right rear. The ending is ruined by a true WTF moment when the right front suddenly features an unsilenced track spewing studio patter.

Now that I have a dub from the original QR, I'll take a more careful listen to some of the other tracks. But I doubt I'll ever consider this one of the better quad releases.

 

[Q-Eight]

The title track, like too many others, just isn't very quad.

Agreed. It is an early Columbia Quad and is quirky (for lack of a better term).
Quad had just come about. How do you mix in Quad? Engineers could barely make good stereo in 1971, let alone 4 channels. It's one of those "something over here, something over there" mixes. As a whole, it's passable, but I agree that it could have been better. Had this been a later release, say in the 32xxx series, I'm sure those at the controls would have had a better idea how to remix.

I don't like lead vocals in all channels as a rule, but here the rears have them full volume and dry. I don't get the point of this. Beyond the fun to be had listening to them solo, how does this create a coherent soundfield?

Lead x4 works but only if the song calls for it ie: The Doors "Love Her Madly" or The Guess Who's "Glamour Boy". Where double or triple tracking applies, mix accordingly. I do however pan some of the Elvis Quads with mono vocals x4.

Drummer Hal Blaine got the sound by hitting his snare on a high-rise on 7th Ave in New York, and thought it sounded like a canon. Whatever the case, it removes one of the most dramatic elements and, for me, wrecks the track.

I was told the story it was a chain slammed against the floor of an empty warehouse?

The ending is ruined by a true WTF moment when the right front suddenly features an unsilenced track spewing studio patter.

I'll have to listen for that.

I enjoy this one, for all it got right and even for all it got wrong. I'm sure we'd all jump at the opportunity to mess with the original 8? 16? track tapes. But it is what it is and that's classic.

 

[ShawnMcCann]

The title track, like too many others, just isn't very quad. But my biggest complaint is with "The Boxer"...What is this song's signature? The "lie-la-lie" refrain, punctuated with a sharp bang. I've always imagined that being a boxer's punch, because that's what it sounds like on the stereo version: crisp, hard, and LOUD. Not here. Instead, we get limp, diffuse, and faraway -- a kid throwing a rock in a trash can three blocks down. Why was this done? I've never heard of a need to keep the dynamics down for an SQ record, even early ones, but who knows...

Yesterday I finally got around to making a needledrop of the quad LP, running it through SQDecode and writing to DVD-A. Your observations are the same as mine. I thought that it was the freeware's fault but apparently not.

Still it was fun to convert and listen to.

 

[EMB]

As I've mentioned in the past, the most direct (and therefore, perhaps best) mix of "The Boxer" is the original mono 45, which really does make that "Lie-la-lie" punch feel like a hit. In stereo it still works, in quad it works but lacks the same impact simply because, as you separate things more, you get the details and nuances but not the impact (which is why the mono 45 was the perfect 'hit record' concept: it came right at you, right or wrong, take it or leave it. And a lot of those were quite nice sonically).

ED

 

[THX1136]

For clarifications sake, the solo in The Boxer is slide guitar and trumpet - or french horn. The recording of Bye, Bye Love was from a recording they did when S&G appeared in Ames Iowa in the armory on campus at ISU. In a Rolling Stone interview that Paul did shortly after he and Artie parted ways, he told the interviewer that they were recording several of their concerts at that time. This one stood out for them as the audience provided such a solid back beat with their clapping. (Yes, some white folks can clap on 2 ad 4 regardless of what you've been told.)

A great album, whether in stereo or quad. Very well done in my mind. Solid 10.

 

[jaybird100]

It seems there's a major contradiction here with many of you slamming the mix, yet the majority of the votes gave the mix and sound a 10. Yes, it's early quad. I haven't heard
one of those quad reels that were mentioned, but I think the mix on BOTW gives it an ethereal sound. I loved the album in stereo, and still love it in quad. I just kick back and
enjoy the music, not pick it apart. And keep this in mind: the quad version of this album won a Grammy for engineering.

 

[Quad Linda]

10. Wider dynamic range than rock albums from this era. Won a Grammy for engineering in 2ch. The Quad mix was one of the first from CBS. Could it have been done better? Perhaps. It's still a nice mix. Musically, how can you get better than this? Dylan may be the only rock songwriter better than Simon. BOTW, Boxer, El Condor Pasa and Cecilia were all hit singles. Debuted at #1 with preorders for a million. Best selling album of all time until Tapestry.

I've owned 11 copies of this, Q8, a couple SQ's, 1/2 speed LP, 2ch LP, import CD, Gold CD, part of three box sets, and the recent CD/DVD. The CD/DVD sadly doesn't include the bonus tracks that Complete Columbia Studio Recordings/corresponding single CD include. DVD features a documentary which aired on CBS at the time. Quad IS the way to hear BOTW.

Many view this as S&G's crowning jewel. I think Bookends is even better, if that's possible. I was in Paul's office in the Brill Building several years ago. He has gold & platinum LP awards mounted on the wall behind his desk. He earned them, so he SHOULD be proud.

The album alludes to their history and imminent breakup in So Long, Frank Lloyd Wright; Tom, get your plane ride on time (Only Living Boy in NY); Bye, Bye Love and Song for the Asking. Thankfully, the breakup wasn't permanent. S&G later gave us My Little Town, What a Wonderful World (w/JT), and two reunions. My Daughter and I saw them on the Old Friends tour w/Everlys. Fantastic!

Linda
Sail On, Silver Girl

It seems there's a major contradiction here with many of you slamming the mix, yet the majority of the votes gave the mix and sound a 10. Yes, it's early quad. I haven't heard
one of those quad reels that were mentioned, but I think the mix on BOTW gives it an ethereal sound. I loved the album in stereo, and still love it in quad. I just kick back and
enjoy the music, not pick it apart. And keep this in mind: the quad version of this album won a Grammy for engineering.

 

[MarioBR]

Why Sony Legacy has not released the SACD of Simon and Garfunkel ??
I can not understand this question
would be a SACD 5.1 success
High Definition version must be Wonderful

PLEASE SONY .. WE WANT SACD SIMON AND GARFUNKEL
From Multi Tracks Master Tapes Recording

 

[Quad Linda]

Don't hold your breath. Yes, it WOULD be wonderful in 5.1 SACD. Sony has abandoned their own line of 5.1 SACD & 2ch SACD's. They custom press 2ch SACD for MoFi.

Welcome to QQ, Mario.

Linda

Why Sony Legacy has not released the SACD of Simon and Garfunkel ??
I can not understand this question
would be a SACD 5.1 success
High Definition version must be Wonderful

PLEASE SONY .. WE WANT SACD SIMON AND GARFUNKEL
From Multi Tracks Master Tapes Recording

 

[Disclord]

Don't hold your breath. Yes, it WOULD be wonderful in 5.1 SACD. Sony has abandoned their own line of 5.1 SACD & 2ch SACD's. They custom press 2ch SACD for MoFi.

Welcome to QQ, Mario.

Linda

Wow, Sony still presses SACD's? I had no idea they did that. I figured all their SACD equipment had been sold off to small companies for the custom pressings that are now made. I always hoped someone would do something like that for LaserDisc - I was sure it would happen since LP's had never totally died off, I figured LD would still be pressed in super small quantities by analog fanatics. Sadly, it wasn't to be.

BTW, are there any SACD's that have an actual image or text on the data read side using SACD's Pit Signal Processing copyright protection?

 

[Quad Linda]

US SQ:


Japan SQ:


Architects may come and architects may go and never change your point of view.