Quad LP/Tape Poll Simon and Garfunkel: Bridge Over Troubled Water[SQ/Q8]

[jaybird100]

Just picked this up yesterday.
Quite pleased!

Did you get the LP or the Q8?

 

[cupboy]

I know they recorded the album "Bridge" in 16 channels separately


why they do not convert this tape 16 channels to DSD digital??

(with 16 channels in the hands they can to do a new mix 2.0 and 5.1 surround)

Because DSD is a product of Sony and Sony doesn't like Sony products.

 

[jaybird100]

Because DSD is a product of Sony and Sony doesn't like Sony products.

Maybe Audio Fidelity will do it. That would be a great title for that series, wouldn't you say?

 

[rtbluray]

Maybe Audio Fidelity will do it. That would be a great title for that series, wouldn't you say?

No chance.
It's already been said on here before that apparently Paul Simon has vetoed the reissue of any of his work in surround.
Shame...

 

[Plan9]

No chance.
It's already been said on here before that apparently Paul Simon has vetoed the reissue of any of his work in surround.
Shame...

And even mono!

 

[fredblue]

No chance.
It's already been said on here before that apparently Paul Simon has vetoed the reissue of any of his work in surround.
Shame...

I just cannot get my head around it, those Quad mixes of his albums are wonderful... has he ever revealed in any interview what the problem is?

 

[cupboy]

And even mono!

How about that record store day 7" 45 that came out in mono: Sounds Of Silence

 

[rtbluray]

I just cannot get my head around it, those Quad mixes of his albums are wonderful... has he ever revealed in any interview what the problem is?

I don't think I've ever come across anything specific he's said against surround, but it's been said on here before (by Brian and others) plus I guess that's a big part of the reason why we never got "Graceland" in surround like we were supposed to.

 

[seilerbird]

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr26/seilerbird/simon-and-garfunkel-cats.jpg

 

[TheAbsentMind]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown quoted below! With the new Japanese SACD due in November I'm working to manage my expectations. As such itis a useful read that also made for a marvelous (and much needed) respite from the real world.

Regarding, "El Condor Pasa" and your description, I have a hunch that Halee et al were limited to "ambient" instrumental background since , unless they were granted access to multis (which I doubt), it was a pre-existing recording by Los Incas. Still, it would've been nice if more could have been done with the vocals. Here's the original backing track, recorded seven or so years earlier by Los Incas:

[video=youtube;GSwu8-ohoWs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSwu8-ohoWs[/video]
​

Per Wikipedia (so take with a grain of salt):

In 1965, the American musician Paul Simon heard for the first time a version of the melody by the band Los Incas in a performance at the Théâtre de l'Est parisien in Paris in which both were participating. Simon became friendly with Los Incas band, later even touring with them and producing their first US-American album. He asked the band for permission to use the song in his production. The band's director and founding member Jorge Milchberg, who was collecting royalties for the song as co-author and arranger, responded erroneously that it was a traditional Peruvian composition. Milchberg told Simon he was registered as the arrangement's co-author and collected royalties.

In 1970, the Simon & Garfunkel duo covered the Los Incas version, adding some English lyrics which in turn added Paul Simon to the author credits under the song name "El Cóndor Pasa (If I Could)". The instrumental version by Los Incas was used as the base track. They included the song on the 1970 album Bridge Over Troubled Water. Simon & Garfunkel released their version as a single in the U.S., which reached #18 on the Billboard Pop Singles chart and #6 on the Easy Listening chart,[3] in fall 1970. This cover achieved major international success and fame.

In regards to the Simon & Garfunkel version, Daniel Alomía Robles, Jorge Milchberg, and Paul Simon are now all listed as songwriters, with Simon listed alone as the author of the English lyrics. However, Daniel Alomía Robles was not originally listed as the composer because Jorge Milchberg had told Simon that the song was considered an Andean folk melody. He further stated that he was the registered co-author and arrangement of the composition.

In late 1970, Daniel Alomía Robles' son Armando Robles Godoy, a Peruvian filmmaker, filed a successful copyright lawsuit against Paul Simon. The grounds for the lawsuit extended that the song had been composed by his father, who had copyrighted the song in the United States in 1933.[2] Armando Robles Godoy has said that he bears no ill will towards Paul Simon for what he considers a "Misunderstanding" and an "Honest Mistake".[4]

"It was an almost friendly court case because Paul Simon was very respectful of other cultures. It was not carelessness on his part," says Armando Robles Godoy.[4] "He happened to hear the song in Paris from a vernacular group Los Incas. He liked it, he went to ask the band for permission and they gave him the wrong information. Jorge Milchberg told him it was a traditional folk song from the 18th century and not my father’s composition. It was a court case without further complications."[4]

A kind forum member loaned me a copy of the quad reel (yes reel) of this album, so I've been going through it in depth on the PC. I must say that over the past 20 or so years, I haven't listened to this album, stereo or quad, because quite frankly I have been totally burned out on it over time. The songs (especially the hits) have been so saturated in my head that I could barely listen to some of them in quad on my PC! (Cecilia, El Condor Pasa)

Anyway, since I had such a pristine source to deal with, I figured I'd spend a few minutes and detail some things about the mix, track by track:

BRIDGE OVER TROUBLED WATER
The first part of the song, up until "Sail on silver girl", the track is pretty much stereo with a hall effect. However, the effect on Garfunkel's voice is very clear and cathedral like, the piano echoing in the cavernous hall. The remainder of the tune pretty much follows suit, although it sounds like the string section is spread across the channels, with the left rear getting a bit more violin section than the others. Although this is a powerful tune and a gem of the catalog, this one has a pretty ambient surround mix. Nothing will really jump out at you, except the chamber effect.

EL CONDOR PASA
This one also starts out with an ambient mix. Pretty much the same thing going on in all 4 speakers. Paul Simon's first verses are heard in the center of the sound stage, so his voice comes from all 4 speakers. When Garfunkel sings the "I think I'd rather sail away", he is exclusively in the fronts. The track continues in the rears. Other than this one example, the rest of the tune follows the ambient trail. It's a shame, because there are a lot of unusual instrumentations going on in this tune, yet they're all bunched up in the phantom center listening area. You can't pick out a flute or a drum in any one particular channel.

CECILIA
Hand claps and percussion start this one off, again in all 4 speakers. Then we get some "quad"! The first time through the intro chorus, the vocal is only in the fronts. Second time, it widens to all 4 speakers, giving the vocals a bigger effect. The guitar(s) are in the front, the percussion is mostly in the rears. The counter melody line from Garfunkel, while one might expect to come from the rears only, again comes from all around. Then, it gets good!
During an instrumental section, there is a very cool xylophone solo in the rears only, with some whistling and joy, while the guitar and acoustic guitar solo are in the fronts. In the quad version, stuff going on in the rears stands out very distinctly as opposed to the stereo version we're used to. This continues to the end of the song, with the vocals echoing in the rears with the xylophone and whistling and thumping.

KEEP THE CUSTOMER SATISFIED
Throughout the song, the vocals are echoed in the rears. However, the rears have their own info in them, in that the bass, the organ and piano are there and can be heard very clearly - thus hearing things that are lost in the stereo mix. From the middle to the end of the tune, when the brass comes in, it's mostly anchored in the rears, with some sections of the lower brass heard clearer than the trumpets, but it's not exclusive to the rears, as the brass is "echoed" in the fronts. I guess that moves it more to the middle of the listening room. Still, if you kill the backs, you still hear brass.

SO LONG FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT
Now this is the most impressive quad mix on the album yet. It's beautiful! We all know that Paul did not want to do this song this way, and Art argued with him and that led to their demise as a duo, but I've always liked this song.
If you listen solo to the rears, you get the excellent orchestral track (which is also in the fronts, and can hear the "score" of the tune quite well. Paul's vocals on the bridge "Architects may come and....." is solo in the rears, which pops out as an attention getter. That's the only vocal, echoed or not, in the rears. The flute solo is in the fronts with a tiny bit of reflection in the rear left. A mellow tune with a nice quad mix.

THE BOXER
The Boxer starts out in the fronts exclusively. The guitars are there in the fronts, nicely split in stereo. The rears have the vocal tracks at a reduced volume by themselves, allowing you to hear the harmonies without any other instrumental backing. Once the bass drum and percussion comes, it's solely in the rears. After the words "I took some comfort there, la la la", there's an instrumental section with a solo. The fronts has the solo in what almost sounds like someone playing a saw(!). The same solo is in the rears, however, it's done by a solo trumpet. Very cool! As the song continues, the guitars in the fronts are clear as a bell! The rears continue with the thumping percussion track. Towards the end, there are some strange "Lie lie lie's" coming from the rears, in a very high angelic voice from Art, and a very very low voice from Paul. The big orchestral build up comes from all 4 channels. The song fades out with some strange sounds I don't remember hearing in the stereo version, almost like a "la da dee"(??) from Art!

BABY DRIVER
"Stereo Handclaps" in the rears at the start, the lead vocal echoed in the rears as well. You can hear the piano nicely in the rear left. The vocal "sound effect" from Paul "broom ba pa ba ba" is rears exclusive, and there are chorus vocals in the rears to fill it out. Of course, there's the race car driving around the 4 speaker sound field, just like an old quad sound effects record! The sax solo's are strange, in that the main sax is in the front left and rear right, while a counter sax is in the front right. The song ends with more quad race car and race track effects!

ONLY LIVING BOY IN NEW YORK
Paul wrote the song about Art (the Tom from "Tom and Jerry") going off to film "Carnal Knowledge). The song starts primarily in the fronts, with the rears getting echo and organ. All guitars are only in the front. The harmony to "half of the time we're gone..." is in the rears, sung by both performers. The background 'ahs' throughout the song are also in the rears, but at a very reduced level. Also, the "here I am's" are also in the rears, but again very low, almost like it's Art saying I'm still here, but far away. A nice effect.

WHY DON'T YOU WRITE ME
Piano by itself with some foot stomps and echo vocal in the rears. Everything else in the fronts. Nice piano work!! Then, the "ooohs" are heard in the rears exclusively, throughout the remainder of the song. The trombone solo is in all 4 speakers, faded towards the rears.


BYE BYE LOVE
This is a live tune, or as I recall a faked live tune. The rears are pretty much audience with the vocals echoed in a stadium like sound. The claps are strictly in the rears, and they are in perfect time (they must be fake). They maintain themselves throughout the entire song. In the middle of the song, there's a "waa hoo" of sorts, with some laughter from the audience. Not sure what that's all about. The applause comes from all 4 channels.

SONG FOR THE ASKING
As the applause fades, the song starts in the fronts. The rears have the string quartet and no vocals. Very nice. It ends with a harmony vocal in the rears with Paul humming the tune. A nice end to a decent quad album. Historic in music, decent in quad.

 

[Q-Eight]

El Condor Pasa by Simon & Garfunkel does not use the original, 1963 music track. It's definitely a re-record and it's definitely multitrack.
Most notable differences in the flute - it's doubled on the original recording, not so on S&G's version. Also, the backing mandolins are recorded in a stereo pair, or a very good fat mono so much so that they are wide in the front with mono echo to the rear. The lead mandolin/guitar is notably wet in the fronts and quite dry in the back. It definitely overpowers the backing instruments in the rear. It's very close, but that kind of credit should go to the Wrecking Crew for being such a spot-on band that they COULD recreate a music track like that.

 

[GOS]

El Condor Pasa by Simon & Garfunkel does not use the original, 1963 music track. It's definitely a re-record and it's definitely multitrack.
Most notable differences in the flute - it's doubled on the original recording, not so on S&G's version. Also, the backing mandolins are recorded in a stereo pair, or a very good fat mono so much so that they are wide in the front with mono echo to the rear. The lead mandolin/guitar is notably wet in the fronts and quite dry in the back. It definitely overpowers the backing instruments in the rear. It's very close, but that kind of credit should go to the Wrecking Crew for being such a spot-on band that they COULD recreate a music track like that.

Since you mentioned the Wrecking Crew. Who were the members during this particular title?

 

[Q-Eight]

Since you mentioned the Wrecking Crew. Who were the members during this particular title?

From the Wikipedia Entry: (although it does Credit Los Incas for "Peruvian Instruments". I'm going to bet that was for copyright purposes only. However it does mention on the album jacket that "Instrumental track by Los Incas used with full authorization of Phillips Records".) Still, listen to the two songs. There are differences and there is definite separation in the Quad version.

Paul Simon – acoustic guitar, percussion
Art Garfunkel – lead vocals, percussion
Los Incas – Peruvian instruments
Joe Osborn – bass guitar
Larry Knechtel – piano, Hammond organ, electric piano
Fred Carter, Jr. – acoustic & electric guitars
Peter Drake – Dobro, pedal steel guitar
Hal Blaine – drums, percussion
Jimmie Haskell and Ernie Freeman – strings
Jon Faddis, Randy Brecker, Lew Soloff & Alan Rubin - brass
Unknown - Woodwinds
Buddy Harman - percussion
Bob Moore – double bass
Roy Halee – engineer and co-producer

 

[quicksrt]

Someone stated that their order got blocked at cdJapan just now. Hope it's nothing.

 

[EMB]

Given that list of musicians, it's obvious recordings were made in Los Angeles, Nashville, and probably NYC, too. This would make sense, since most were recorded in 1969, with Garfunkel's contributions when his schedule permitted, as he was acting in Mike Nichols' CATCH-22, which allegedly pissed Simon to no end, since he and Halee worked on the tracks and then had to wait for Mr. G to arrive so they could finish them. The situation surely accelerated the duo's breakup, though I believe, like the Everly Brothers, as they grew older they began to grow apart, the priorities of each being different, and all those years together taking a toll.

I gave this album a 9 at the time, and wouldn't change that vote. I still think the title track is exceptional in quad, particularly given that it was two singers and a pianist most of the way. As for "El Condor Pasa," I'd always assumed Los Incas rerecorded the instrumental track for this version. Although the credit might suggest that it had been licensed from Philips, one could also construe that whatever the situation, the track was recorded, owned by Philips, who then gave permission for its use. It didn't have to be the older version.

ED

 

[JonUrban]

I recently revisited this quad album to make a .flac version for the car. I listened to to a few times this week, went back and read my track-by-track review I did all those years ago, and of course, re-read this thread. Since I hadn't played it in over 5 years or so, it was fun to discover it again. (I could listen to "Frank Lloyd Wright" on loop for hours!)

However, a HUGE point that I missed in my review, and was actually pointed out by BidCat/Eggplant in a post after my review, the "crashes" in the song "The Boxer" are virtually non-existent in the quad mix. The sound is so perfect and beautiful to listen to and get in to, but when your brain is expecting the "crash" and powerful punch of the song, it's not there. You have to listen very closely and you can say "There it is, way back there", and not just in the rears, it's way back there in the mix!

I took a shot at the rear channels in Sound Forge to see if I could bring it up. Using RX7 I removed the percussion which pulled all of the "thumps" out, but the crash was so far buried in the mix that there is no hope.

I agree with Alan, it really ruins the song.

As for the rest of the album, it's still a "wow". It's a very excellent mix with one startling flaw. Sadly. Maybe that's why Paul doesn't want it rereleased on SACD.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I recently revisited this quad album to make a .flac version for the car. I listened to to a few times this week, went back and read my track-by-track review I did all those years ago, and of course, re-read this thread. Since I hadn't played it in over 5 years or so, it was fun to discover it again. (I could listen to "Frank Lloyd Wright" on loop for hours!)

However, a HUGE point that I missed in my review, and was actually pointed out by BidCat/Eggplant in a post after my review, the "crashes" in the song "The Boxer" are virtually non-existent in the quad mix. The sound is so perfect and beautiful to listen to and get in to, but when your brain is expecting the "crash" and powerful punch of the song, it's not there. You have to listen very closely and you can say "There it is, way back there", and not just in the rears, it's way back there in the mix!

I took a shot at the rear channels in Sound Forge to see if I could bring it up. Using RX7 I removed the percussion which pulled all of the "thumps" out, but the crash was so far buried in the mix that there is no hope.

I agree with Alan, it really ruins the song.

As for the rest of the album, it's still a "wow". It's a very excellent mix with one startling flaw. Sadly. Maybe that's why Paul doesn't want it rereleased on SACD.

With today's digital technology, Jon, I'm sure those crashes could be reinserted into the QUAD mix.

 

[JonUrban]

With today's digital technology, Jon, I'm sure those crashes could be reinserted into the QUAD mix.

It's on the list. Now where's that mono 45?

 

[ghalteman]

I sure wish someone would re-issue the Quad version of that gem, maybe an Anniversary Edition some day. I only have a "Dup" of the Michael Robin reel.

 

[ar surround]

..."The Boxer" are virtually non-existent in the quad mix. The sound is so perfect and beautiful to listen to and get in to, but when your brain is expecting the "crash" and powerful punch of the song, it's not there. You have to listen very closely and you can say "There it is, way back there", and not just in the rears, it's way back there in the mix!...

Very interesting how the brain becomes conditioned (perhaps brain washed?) To this day, my brain still expects to hear the dropout in the "repaired" versions of Day Tripper on Beatles 1. I must have played that song 800 times over the years with the dropout, so the corrected version sounds just "wrong" to my brain. Weird...really weird.