Speaker Matching in a 5.1 Setup

[Blrac]

First off let me apologize if this has been beaten to death and extensively discussed elsewhere here (I can't find it though) and/or this is the wrong place to ask. Also please understand I am learning as I go about multichannel stuff...music, hardware, etc. and this is the best place I have found to go for accurate information. I am researching things daily so I am not asking things to be lazy, moreso for clarification on things I haven't been able to satisfactorily discern yet. That being said, my next subject to discuss is speakers. Now before I get the typical responses (which is tons of questions about everything I own and where) and I understand the subjectivity of which speaker I want, but this is more about of what type of speaker to get.

To elaborate more, I currently have a typical 5.1 home theater set up with a pair of tower speakers, a center speaker and bookshelf speakers for surround, and a sub. All of these have the same size woofers, mids, and tweeters for balance except obviously the sub. Not sure how much that helps or hurts but it is what I have. I just purchased Gallo CL4 speakers, only 2 for now as an upgrade. More upgrades will come but this was first. My questions begin with should I get 5 of the same speaker or can I get the center and bookshelf speakers to match and please give me opinions why. I am all but set on the center and bokshelf mainly because of my space and practicality, but if there is overwhelming logic to not do this I will see what I can do. My main usage for these are music and mainly surround like the titles typically discussed on this site. I also use it for movies and stereo and streaming music (Pandora, etc.). I am thinking that 5 full size is best for surround music but not needed for anything else, but not my easiest option. How much am I missing out on the surround speakers by not using full size? Any other insights, experiences, whatever are appreciated.

 

[Snood]

Snood is interested in this answer toooooo.........happy with mine for now, but when I do upgrade, hmm - Thanks Blrac = I will be watching this one too. :banana:

 

[wavelength]

Here's my 2 cents. Critics are always welcomed.

The theory behind the idea of 5 identical speakers is that a discrete multichannel music recording will have continuous, important information spread across all channels. And each channel is one part of a grand unified musical piece. Therefore you would want to render all the channel information the same way by using 5 identical speakers.

The physical room will affect that rendering. If a speaker is too close to the listener the sound becomes localized - that speaker is too prominent - and the surround effect deteriorates. Usually if this is a problem it is with the location of the rear speakers. The solution is to use surround speakers instead of the speakers that match the front speakers.

The other issue in my opinion is the center speaker. The horizontal center speaker is probably fine for movies. With multichannel music, I think it is very difficult to get a unified sound field across the Left, Center, and Right speakers if you use a horizontal Center speaker. I think the idea of identical speakers definitely applies to the front sound-stage and cannot be compromised if good surround music is to be realized.

 

[Blrac]

Do you make the comments about the center based upon the fact that the center is laid out differently even if would have the same size and number of drivers? Obviously the accoustics are all engineered based upon many parameters, but the obvious and simple explanation would be that the cabinet alone in almost all cases is considerably different. The thing I am curious about then is how does a 3rd matching tower sound for movies? I am also curious as to where you would place a single tower since my center currently sits on my giant tv....a tower would definitely look different. Size and distant corrections can be factored in to delays etc. and I don't think that would compromise the purity of the hi rez music. For example for home theater usage my surrounds are way too loud because I turned them up for the multi channel music, but it was individualized settings based upon my preferences, not any processing (at least to the best of my knowledge other than potential delay corrections).

I would also add that the reason I ask about 5 of the same speakers is based on assumption that multi channel music is mixed equally (depnding on song) in volume not necessarily content, although content in most is much less in the rear than the front, imo, where the rears in a good mix are well used but not necessarily critical to the integrity of the song, more ambience than substance. Not everything, but I think the majority is that way, which is another reason I would question the need for tower surrounds. But that is just my opinion....maybe a better setup would reveal things I don't hear now. Of course as I write this I am listening Elton John's Jamica Jerk Off and the rears are exploding around me.

 

[Blrac]

Snood, I was happy since I just got all new speakers but for some reason I have had this desire to really upgrade something...so I have been doing lots of homework reading reviews and ratings and opinions. It is an exhaustive search but I had a few brands on my list that kept getting mentioned. I kept checking prices on those brands and expanding my search when I found one that intrigued me. Well one thing lead to another and I expanded my max amount I was willing to sepnd to see what that opened up and I found the Gallo Clasico. Then I found a deal that I think is a mistake, so I bought 2 of them, and proceeded to post here if I should buy more, lol. Now I am trying to figure out my best options and continue to gather insights and wiser more experienced opinions.

 

[wavelength]

My comment about the center is based on my experience - I used to have a center speaker but I swapped it out for an upright that matches my L & R. I was frustrated trying to balance the front sound-stage for music. I believe that with every difference in one's multi-channel music configuration the ability to faithfully reproduce the source material lessens.

As far a movies go I have forgotten how the horizontal center sounds but I don't have any personal gripes about using the tower center. Obviously the vertical center has to go below the TV and the TV has to be wall-mounted. If that is not possible then there is only 1 option - a horizontal center. Bottom line - unless you have separate rooms for movies and music there will be compromises. Home Theater and Surround Music Listening are 2 different animals. If you wanted the best from each and had the money you would set up 2 rooms.

So do you compromise in favour of movies or in favour of music? I'm on the music side - that's my focus. Anything can be rationalized but that does not necessarily mean it is fact. I have surrounds for the rears and I can tell myself it sounds pretty good. But I know the fact is I wish I had a bigger room and 5 identical speakers.

 

[Blrac]

I concur with wanting music to be main focus. I am still hashng out my compromises My other hang up is the practicality of affording all I want to do. One step at a time and so many things will be change for me soon. Then again patience never was my strongest trait...

 

[wavelength]

Yeah, for me that (lack of patience) would have been a real problem. I started building my current system 10 years ago.

 

[chuckflhp]

The most important thing in choosing speakers isn't configuration or size. It is voice matching. Most surround systems cross over relatively high. In the 40hz to 60hz range. The THX crossover point is 80hz. If your using something like Audyssey it will take a lot of the guess work out of it. I use 4 identical full range towers for front and rears. My center is of horizontal design, but much more important, it is is voice matched to the mains and rears at anything above 40hz. For 95% of music there is very little true bass information coming out of the center. And in the unlikely event anything does show up, it should be redirected to the sub anyway. Find a sub that is musical rather than a thump monster. Fast and tight is the name of the game. If you have the space 2 are better than 1. My 2 cents.

 

[fredblue]

Do you make the comments about the center based upon the fact that the center is laid out differently even if would have the same size and number of drivers? Obviously the accoustics are all engineered based upon many parameters, but the obvious and simple explanation would be that the cabinet alone in almost all cases is considerably different. The thing I am curious about then is how does a 3rd matching tower sound for movies? I am also curious as to where you would place a single tower since my center currently sits on my giant tv....a tower would definitely look different. Size and distant corrections can be factored in to delays etc. and I don't think that would compromise the purity of the hi rez music. For example for home theater usage my surrounds are way too loud because I turned them up for the multi channel music, but it was individualized settings based upon my preferences, not any processing (at least to the best of my knowledge other than potential delay corrections).

I would also add that the reason I ask about 5 of the same speakers is based on assumption that multi channel music is mixed equally (depnding on song) in volume not necessarily content, although content in most is much less in the rear than the front, imo, where the rears in a good mix are well used but not necessarily critical to the integrity of the song, more ambience than substance. Not everything, but I think the majority is that way, which is another reason I would question the need for tower surrounds. But that is just my opinion....maybe a better setup would reveal things I don't hear now. Of course as I write this I am listening Elton John's Jamica Jerk Off and the rears are exploding around me.

the rears are mixed a bit loud on the Elton 5.1's (imho) so if you've got your rears whacked up like you said (which you shouldn't need to for the majority of multichannel music mixes, the noteable exceptions get discussed here) its no wonder Jamaica Jerk-Off's exploding in the rears!

as for speaker size, I'd say this, if you only ever listened to Quad (4-Ch music.. and your listening room allows large speakers) then 4 identical full-range speakers is where it's at.

..but with the overwhelming majority of 5.1 mixes (both movies and music) the rears and centre seldom have anywhere like the sheer content of the Front Pair/Main L&R and so you do not need identical speakers with 5.1. you do however need 3 voice-matched speakers across Front L/R and Centre, some of the manufacturers get this more right than others within their ranges of 5.1 speaker packages, so you need to do your research before buying.

case in point; I'm currently running the cheapest, smallest speakers I've had in my main setup for many years and I reckon they sound amazing with MultiCh music. why? because the front 3 have been very carefully voice matched (even though the centre's a horizontal design) by the manufacturer and I've gone to great pains to get my subwoofer (not part of the package, it's an old REL, very musical sub and not a "doof-doof-doof" job) as well-placed and EQ'd and volume set as possible.. with all 5 set to 80hz, all 5 placed as practically ideally as possible in the room with regard the ITU etc (though I prefer Fronts and Rears equidistant from the listening position now, my room's small and I get a better sensation of separation with the rears further away from the seating) and I'm happier than ever. with speakers, you don't have to spend a fortune to get good results with surround music but you do have to choose carefully and then position and set them all up carefully, sounds obvious I guess but is one very important angle I'd say.

 

[DuncanS]

The most important thing in choosing speakers isn't configuration or size. It is voice matching. Most surround systems cross over relatively high. In the 40hz to 60hz range. The THX crossover point is 80hz. If your using something like Audyssey it will take a lot of the guess work out of it. I use 4 identical full range towers for front and rears. My center is of horizontal design, but much more important, it is is voice matched to the mains and rears at anything above 40hz. For 95% of music there is very little true bass information coming out of the center. And in the unlikely event anything does show up, it should be redirected to the sub anyway. Find a sub that is musical rather than a thump monster. Fast and tight is the name of the game. If you have the space 2 are better than 1. My 2 cents.

I agree, I put together my system for music rather than films. I've four Monitor Audio Silver RS8s, and the matching centre, but with no Sub, so my amp is set up accordingly - the bass is loud enough as it is!

 

[IMachine]

I have a 5.1 set which is absolutely amazing.
I also hear quad music and miss not anything.

The quality of the speakers play the game.

Audessey and all other alienation effects are turned off here.

The surrounds and center should be able to play between 60 hz and 50 khz.
Read specs about it.

I have one a long time research and hearing sessions before I decided, because as I told in another thread, speakers are the most important thing.
Ok, the amplifier should have enough power to push them, but never have more power than the speakers can manage.

....just my 2 cents....

 

[leevitalone1]

I agree, I put together my system for music rather than films. I've four Monitor Audio Silver RS8s, and the matching centre, but with no Sub, so my amp is set up accordingly - the bass is loud enough as it is!

A matching center is crucial to music and movies. The idea is a tonal balance between the 3 front speakers. The center should be positioned above of below the tv or screen. The thinking is to direct voice and effects to the screen. In music it's different. It took me a while to get over the "sweet spot" or imaging from stereo that I always thought was a treat to discover in different recordings. Upon starting multi-channel, I had no clue as to formats and started with dulby logic-no center. It was awful. Then it was Dulby pro and there were no matching center speakers. With 5 mis-matched speakers, it sounded all tinny and again awful. It was not until speaker makers began making 5 tonal matching units that the idea began to actually sound really good. I'm on my 2nd set having up graded recently and It was a very good investment.

 

[fredblue]

I agree, I put together my system for music rather than films. I've four Monitor Audio Silver RS8s, and the matching centre, but with no Sub, so my amp is set up accordingly - the bass is loud enough as it is!

OOH THOSE RS8's are FOOKIN' GORGEOUSSSSSSS...!!!!!!!! :banana: what finish are they in?

I'm running Monitor Audio Bronze BX2's & BX Centre (cheapo and tiny compared to your Silver range RS') across the front 3 now and it is the first time I've had a truly seamless soundstage across the front with a centre included, for the money they're gobsmackingly good - full of detail without being fatiguing.

I've always resisted MA speakers as their reputations been they err on the bright side of things but I heard several different sets of MA's in people's homes and on demo in the last few years and was impressed every time so I felt compelled last year to dip my toe in the water with them and try them out for the first time with their budget BX's (having had Mission's, Mordaunt Short, KEF, JBL, Jamo, Sony, B&O, Tannoy, Acoustic Energy.. I've been thru tons of speakers over the years, they generally all had things going for them) and I'm so shocked at how much better they sound than their price tag would suggest.. eventually I'll upgrade to the RX's but I'm in no hurry, the little Monitor Audio's in tandem with my trusty old REL are doing just fine.

 

[fredblue]

these are DuncanS' speakers btw (YUM!)..

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/support/past-products/silver-rs/rs8/

mine are from the entry range..

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/bronze-bx/

 

[Blrac]

The Polk speakers I have now are matched, as verified by conversations with several people there. I was searchimg for the same thing with the Gallo speakers I just bought and that did influnce my choice, not just in manufacturer but also in the speaker line. They make matching surrounds and center. I say that based upon the fact they list them as matching in tweeter s and drivers as well as output ranges. I was doing my searching based upon the fact that this matching was helpful and necessary but wanted to reaffirm that belief. Thanks for input concerning this. I feel better in my choice in that everyone agrees on that. I still haven't decided on full size or tower for surrounds. I am also considering the CL -3 for surrounds instead of the CL-4 I bought for mains. Although the CL-2 has the same tweeter and driver and can probably half ass the bass since they would be wall mounted close to the corners of my room and close to the ceiling. I need to do some homework on a good musical sub now apparently. I think I am going with the matching center speaker immediately, but which is more important next--sub or surrounds? My budget won't tolerate both yet.

From what I am gathering I am on the same page as the rest of you. I would like to do things differently but my room layout and budget prevent this for now. I am not unhappy with what I have now but really wanted to step up in the quality of speaker and see what it does. I am not sure how much of a step up it will be yet but it is a start. I will be upgrading components in the future and hopefully that fills in any voids.

I must admit I am a bit giddy in anticipation of getting this new stuff, which is a good thing considering the trials and tibulations of my life recently.

 

[leevitalone1]

these are DuncanS' speakers btw (YUM!)..

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/support/past-products/silver-rs/rs8/

mine are from the entry range..

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/bronze-bx/

Well, now we all know you have money to burn a hole in your hand, you and Duncan.
I feel terribly impudent with my Polk rti8's !

 

[IMachine]

Here is my little KEF set.
I would never change the winning team

 

[leevitalone1]

and these in back dual binding posts on both sets, and a polk cs-3 center
The tsi 100's are great! for such small speakers, they carry the BD Tommy and the drums in the L-rear just fine. I'm surprised at the output of them. yes I still have my sub, Polk 12" @150watts.

 

[fredblue]

Well, now we all know you have money to burn a hole in your hand, you and Duncan.
I feel terribly impudent with my Polk rti8's !

oh no way! well at least in my case, Duncan's "Silver"
speakers are in another league compared to my "Bronze" which are genuinely budget speakers! the BX5's are only £500 a pair and the multiple award-winning BX2's just £250 a pair. e.g. my old Beolabs were £1600 10 years ago (admittedly they have built in amps) but the Monitor Audio's wipe the floor with the B&O's in every way for a mere fraction of the cost, they really are exceptional speaker bargains.