Speaker Matching in a 5.1 Setup

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According to Pioneer they said basically the same thing. I am looking into upgrading my receiver (which is also used for my ht) or adding an amp. I am on the fence about which way to go. I will be soliciting opinions and reading more about which best suits me. I need something for my home theater and I have speakers set up in another room run off the same receiver, so I think avr is the best for me, but do I upgrade or add amp...

EDIT: I found an amp that has great reviews and seems like a perfect fit, Dared DV-6C. It is a hybrid tube/D class digital amp. Well reviewed and affordable. If I add an amp to my existing receiver, I assume my receiver still does everything but provide the power to the speakers? Or extra power to the speakers? I have a speaker setting to pick A, B, A+B, or none. It says to select none if you have an amp set up to power the speakers. I assume this means I either have the receiver work or the amp work (this may be a question for Pioneer, but didn't know if anyone was familiar with this set up). If the amp provides the power, I assume that affects the quality of the sound as much as the DACs, equipment connected, connection type and quality of cables, etc., since I have always read about how good tube amps make things sound, the warm, rich analog type sound. Please correct what I may be misunderstanding. If this is correct, and an amp such as this makes my music sound that much better, my choice is clear. If this is not correct, please enlighten me.
 
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I need more guidance on which item I need to add. I need more power for my new speakers so I have to add / upgrade something. My search has brought me to a new receiver, either the Pioneer SC-75 or the SC-77; or an amp (looking at Dared DV-6C hybrid tube amp (65w / channel x 6 channels) or Emotiva UPA 500 or 700 (80w / channel for 5 or 7 channels, respectively). I would like to solicit some thoughts on the pros and cons of each choice if you would be willing to offer some insight or constructive critism or guidance, please.

I have made my list of pros and cons and I am on the fence.

RECEIVER: PROS: Upgraded DACs to Sabre32 for 9 channels; 4k passthrough or upscaling (not deal breaker); class D power for more energy efficiency; 135w per channel power; will have same power for my zone 2 speakers and be able to listen to them at same time as mains (can't do this with the Dared or Emotiva 5 channel)
CONS: Cost (it is almost 3x as expensive as any amp); no current use for my old receiver then and have to sell cheap most likely;

AMP: PROS: Better or more consistent power (not positive on this though, so need clarification if this is accurate); easy to add; can be used forever on any receiver I will buy; cheaper
CONS: Only powers main speakers with less than 7 channel amp; stuck with potential outdated receiver

I realize that the pros and cons are not a permanent thing as I know eventually I will have to upgrade my receiver, but not necessarily the amp. I know there are more than these brands or types of amps, but these were reasonably priced, and quite frankly I do not know much about amps and what to look for. There are so many and so many opinions on all of them, it is information overload. I am mainly seeking the best upgrade I can get and hopefully the most cost effective one as well. I do not need a new receiver immediately as mine is not really outdated or obsolete, but it will not run 4 ohm speakers as it is. I do believe, based on lots of research that the upgraded DACs in the new receiver are a good upgrade, as well as more power, but is that better for sound quality than an amp? Generic opinions are fine as I know most do not own any of the items I am looking at or the same combination. Just what you think is more bang for the buck looking at my pros and cons lists, as well as adding in your $.02.

I appreciate all the help you all have given so far and look forward to your views on this.
 
EDIT: I found an amp that has great reviews and seems like a perfect fit, Dared DV-6C. It is a hybrid tube/D class digital amp. Well reviewed and affordable. If I add an amp to my existing receiver, I assume my receiver still does everything but provide the power to the speakers? Or extra power to the speakers? I have a speaker setting to pick A, B, A+B, or none. It says to select none if you have an amp set up to power the speakers. I assume this means I either have the receiver work or the amp work (this may be a question for Pioneer, but didn't know if anyone was familiar with this set up). If the amp provides the power, I assume that affects the quality of the sound as much as the DACs, equipment connected, connection type and quality of cables, etc., since I have always read about how good tube amps make things sound, the warm, rich analog type sound. Please correct what I may be misunderstanding. If this is correct, and an amp such as this makes my music sound that much better, my choice is clear. If this is not correct, please enlighten me.

The tube/Class-D is an unusual combination. If you like the sound then its for you. I like valve (tube) amps for guitars as they add warmth. I have a Pioneer SC-LX86 which has Class-D power amps which I really like. I like to hear things with all the imperfections of the original recording so I like a very clean sound. Having designed a Class-D amp (sadly not for audio) the really tricky bit is getting the output filter correct, and able to cope with the load it sees - which for a speaker is quite complex. IMHO Pioneer have got it right - mind you the SC-LX86 was 'tuned' by Air Studios.

If your old receiver has analogue outputs you could feed the new amplifier with them, or if its got HDMI output and the new has HDMI input I'd use that instead. The 'None' setting is probably there so that if you don't have speakers connected to your receiver, the output power amps are not left with no load - some amps really don't like that. The new amp will have its own power supply, so only the low level audio signals Analogue or Digital will be passed to it.

As for cables most of what is written is pseudo-science/psycho-babble! Get gold plated connectors for the low level signals, and good thick cable for the speakers, spend the money on the speakers themselves as they add the most distortion.
 
I don't know about Bose pre-amps and subs, but I recently replaced my four Bose 901's for four Focal Chorus 716V speakers, and now I feel something is "missing". I even added my Sony SA-WM40 subwoofer to the mix. I just don't get the same "excitement" in the final crescendos of Iron Butterfly "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" and Ravel's Bolero, my two test pieces. I never considered myself an audiophile, and my ears ain't what they used to be, but the Focal's just aren't providing the punch I felt with the Bose 901's. If they weren't so hard to set up, I would consider going back, but I need the QRX-9001 four channel inputs for my tape deck.

well focals have great tweeters(which Bose do not have) ..but when did any mid priced focal woofers (in their mid priced speakers)give any great punch or great gutsy midrange....
 
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I bought the Pioneer SC-77. 140w / channel with seperate amps per channel (class d), THX Ultra2 certified (meaning it will handle the load of all my surround speakers at reference volume at 4 ohms), Air Studio tuned, Sabre32 DACs for each channel, blah, blah, blah. Upon reviewing so many things, this seemed to be not only the best all around fit, but easiest to integrate since it will just replace my current Pioneer. I can always add an amp I figured but this takes care of everything I was trying to do, so I just bit the bullet and continued my spending spree. I must admit it has been fun researching things and gathering knowledge and opinions. Thanks to all who have contributed, it is greatly appreciated.

My new items now include a new pair of Gallo Classico CL 4 for fronts, CL Center, and a pair of CL 2 for surrounds, Pioneer SC-77 avr, and Vizio M551D LED 3Dtv, as well as quite a few new surround discs in various formats. Save all year, spend in a month...but I am happy with what I got at the prices I paid. I am looking forward to putting it all together and enjoying the sound for many years to come. I may inquire of some additional details of fine tunings, etc., but once again, thank you to all who have helped me in my quest.
 
So I got the order placed in the morning for my new receiver and that afternoon my old one started acting weird. Just my luck, but it could have been worse--I could have bought an amp and then had my receiver go bad...it may just be the communication from my blu ray player but I won't know until my new receiver shows up in a week or so to test. My life is not without its ironies. I am starting to believe in the concept that things happen for a reason. I just wish I knew more of them!
 
I have the front speakers hooked up to my new receiver, not broken in yet, but HOLY SH!T they are so much better than what I had. I am hearing things I never heard before, literally. I have read that and disregarded it as maketing hype, but it is very true. I think there is a guy hiding behind my speaker playing a guitar 8 feet in front of me off to the left a bit, and keeps dagging his pick a bit on the ridges of his strings.

I had a bit of buyer's remorse when I was sitting here without a receiver, no new tv, no new speakers for a week, then one of my new speakers was damaged during shipping, and the guy I ordered the tv from never shipped it (still waiting for a refund and my newly ordered one to arrive). I kept thinking how much money I spent and was it worth it. Well so far, YES! The stereo sound coming from my cd collection is amazing, I can't wait until my replacement speaker gets here for 5.1 sound. Hopefully the 3d tv arrives soon and my mid life crisis home theater/stereo makeover will be complete. But right now I am happy with the items I have so far and especially the deals I got on them. As much as I listen to music, this is money well spent. Now to refill my piggy bank.
 
I have the front speakers hooked up to my new receiver, not broken in yet, but HOLY SH!T they are so much better than what I had. I am hearing things I never heard before, literally. I have read that and disregarded it as maketing hype, but it is very true. I think there is a guy hiding behind my speaker playing a guitar 8 feet in front of me off to the left a bit, and keeps dagging his pick a bit on the ridges of his strings.

I had a bit of buyer's remorse when I was sitting here without a receiver, no new tv, no new speakers for a week, then one of my new speakers was damaged during shipping, and the guy I ordered the tv from never shipped it (still waiting for a refund and my newly ordered one to arrive). I kept thinking how much money I spent and was it worth it. Well so far, YES! The stereo sound coming from my cd collection is amazing, I can't wait until my replacement speaker gets here for 5.1 sound. Hopefully the 3d tv arrives soon and my mid life crisis home theater/stereo makeover will be complete. But right now I am happy with the items I have so far and especially the deals I got on them. As much as I listen to music, this is money well spent. Now to refill my piggy bank.

Awesome News Blrac........Can't beat that feeling :51banana:
 
So since I upgraded everything else, thought I may as well inquire about subs now. There is a lot of conflicting info on this topic! I have four 5 1/4" drivers/woofers on my fronts, which do a great job on higher frequency bass. They are tight and responsive, so it leads me to think I want a bigger sub (12"+) to get down low where these speakers won't shine. That being said, I also realize this is mainly for movies. I do use this for movies as well, but still want at least 2/3 of my decision based on music. I currently have an older Polk PSW12 for my sub. It is ported in the front, front firing, 300w(or less). Not the top of the line, but I don't know how important subs are or can be. I do not notice any lack of bottom or boom or rumble from movies, and doesn't sound bad for music. Then again my other speakers didn't either, until I compared them to my new ones. I would basically take that same logic and apply it to subs as well, and it makes me wonder what else I am missing? I can easily place 2, but not sure if it is needed. I would prefer 2 smaller subs, but they won't hit the lower frequencies like bigger ones willl. I have mid and upper bass, like I said, so I am thinking (yes, scary) that a big single sub would be best for me. Currently my sub is next to my front right speaker, the fronts are about 8' apart and 8' from me in that triangle you should have. The sound from the sub is supportive of the music, or so I think since there are no comparisons to be made, just basically volume adjustments (which I have it where I want it for integration). My room is not large enough to merit two 12" subs, but I can accomodate it, and adjust accordingly if that is best. Money is an issue, and I have been looking at lots of options. But before I think of buying anything, how bad is my sub now, and explain what sub is better and why please. I want to complete my speaker package, but in a cost effective manor. My surrounds are single drivers and my center has two drivers, all the same size as the front, same brand, etc. so those need the bass. Just trying to paint the picture as best I can. Most of my music listening is hi rez surround, so that needs to be factored in also.
 
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So since I upgraded everything else, thought I may as well inquire about subs now. There is a lot of conflicting info on this topic! I have four 5 1/4" drivers/woofers on my fronts, which do a great job on higher frequency bass. They are tight and responsive, so it leads me to think I want a bigger sub (12"+) to get down low where these speakers won't shine. That being said, I also realize this is mainly for movies. I do use this for movies as well, but still want at least 2/3 of my decision based on music. I currently have an older Polk PSW12 for my sub. It is ported in the front, front firing, 300w(or less). Not the top of the line, but I don't know how important subs are or can be. I do not notice any lack of bottom or boom or rumble from movies, and doesn't sound bad for music. Then again my other speakers didn't either, until I compared them to my new ones. I would basically take that same logic and apply it to subs as well, and it makes me wonder what else I am missing? I can easily place 2, but not sure if it is needed. I would prefer 2 smaller subs, but they won't hit the lower frequencies like bigger ones willl. I have mid and upper bass, like I said, so I am thinking (yes, scary) that a big single sub would be best for me. Currently my sub is next to my front right speaker, the fronts are about 8' apart and 8' from me in that triangle you should have. The sound from the sub is supportive of the music, or so I think since there are no comparisons to be made, just basically volume adjustments (which I have it where I want it for integration). My room is not large enough to merit two 12" subs, but I can accomodate it, and adjust accordingly if that is best. Money is an issue, and I have been looking at lots of options. But before I think of buying anything, how bad is my sub now, and explain what sub is better and why please. I want to complete my speaker package, but in a cost effective manor. My surrounds are single drivers and my center has two drivers, all the same size as the front, same brand, etc. so those need the bass. Just trying to paint the picture as best I can. Most of my music listening is hi rez surround, so that needs to be factored in also.

The advantage of having multiple subs is that's it's easier to smooth out bass response by eliminating room peaks and nulls, i.e. every sub placement will have different interactions w/ your room and some freq's will be reinforced while others are cancelled. Having subs firing from different directions make it's easier to have the subs at least partially counter-act these effects. Two or more subs in conjunction w/ really good Room Correction software (like Audyssey Multi XT 32) will really smooth things out, while also having a wider sweet spot for the bass. Probably about the best you can do w/o doing room treatments.

Don't think subs are just for movies either. There are a ton of HQ surround mixes w/ heavy bass. And to get that deep bass requires at least a 12-incher imo. You said you could fit 2 12's in your room, but it would be like overkill, but the 2nd sub is not about adding more volume in the lows, but smoothing response. If you can fit it in your budget, 2 12's would be the way to go. If money's tight, there are some fine-performing budget subs. I got the following:

http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F...=1391410934&sr=8-1&keywords=bic+f12+subwoofer

This BIC F12 has many great reviews and I've found it to be very satisfying. You can get a pair shipped for under $400. I think you'd be in for many goose bump-inducing moments once you got those babys dialed in. Are they audiophile quality? Certainly not. When you start talking about speed, punch, extension down to 20 hz etc., you're entering much higher dollar territory. I could be wrong, but I believe 2 of these will outperform one "audiophile" sub that costs even a few hundred dollars more than this pair. And there are other budget subs that would also fit the bill. (Check out the sub forum on AVS).

I know I would quickly add another F12 to my set-up if I had the room, but my man cave won't fit them both. If your room can fit 2, I hope you consider that route. I think the F12 is a better sub than your Polk (though obviously biased, but I have read reviews of others who've had both and preferred the BIC), but you can also think about just adding another PSW 12, esp. if you can find a good price, maybe even a used one. This will let you hear the difference between 1 and 2 subs, then maybe later you step up to a better pair. There's always better sound to be had, if your wallet is so inclined...
 
PS: Reading back, I see you just bought a Pio AVR. IIRC, their Room Correction software does not operate on the low frequencies. This will be something you'll need to do some measurements on your own to really tweak your bass. Having 2 subs will make that a more complicated (though rewarding) process.
 
PS: Reading back, I see you just bought a Pio AVR. IIRC, their Room Correction software does not operate on the low frequencies. This will be something you'll need to do some measurements on your own to really tweak your bass. Having 2 subs will make that a more complicated (though rewarding) process.

Please elaborate on how I would go about this. The MCACC (Pioneer's version) does adjust my sub, but iirc it is not as detailed or even what some call bass management. It basically adjusted the volume, from what I can tell. I will certainly look into this more. I am looking at buying a pair of SVS PB-12 NSD subs for now. I have read nothing but good things about them and they are now discontinued so discounted too. I will set them with one approx. 9' in front of me, and just offset to the right, next to front speakers, and the second approx. 9' to the left side and offset a bit behind me, sort of behind my corner sectional sofa (it is rounded off there, so not completely blocked). This is about as good as I can do. I don't have many options other than that in placement. I may do the sub crawl, but placement options are very limited with two subs.
 
Please elaborate on how I would go about this. The MCACC (Pioneer's version) does adjust my sub, but iirc it is not as detailed or even what some call bass management. It basically adjusted the volume, from what I can tell. I will certainly look into this more.
The setting of volume level and distance/delay as well as the rerouting of bass from the main channels to the sub is done by MCACC and is, indeed, what is customarily regarded as bass management.

What MCACC does not do (from what I read as I have never used it) is equalize the subwoofer to account for its variable FR and the excitation of room modes consequent to its placement in the room. I consider the sub response the most important thing for any RoomEQ and other EQ devices (e.g., Audyssey, YPAO, etc.) will EQ the sub(s) to varying extents. Since you have already purchased the Pioneer, you should consider getting subs with built-in EQ or a separate EQ box.
 
Thanks for the info, Kal. If I could tap into your wealth of knowldge a bit...can you please explain in as simple terms as possible, what I would be adjusting on the sub(s) with a built in eq, or a stand alone one (what exactly does this control--bass only, every speaker, etc.)? I am a bit confused as to what would be adjusted and how and why. Also, how does having a pair of subs affect these adjustments? I have never done anything along these lines before, so this is all new a greek to me at the moment. I am reading up on things, but your help is appreciated. For an example, I looked at SVS PB-12 Plus, which has a built in eq. Is this the type of thing you are referring to? I was looking at the regular version of that without the eq, but it does have dsp. I don't know what, if any help that is. My gut feeling is it does nothing to address what you mentioned. I am trying to keep my spending as low as possible, but no need buying something that doesn't work correctly. I will ultimately decide what I prefer and can afford, but examples are welcomed. I don't have the space to go bigger than a 12" sub, and woulld prefer smaller, but I need the lower output, or so I think.
 
Thanks for the info, Kal. If I could tap into your wealth of knowldge a bit...can you please explain in as simple terms as possible, what I would be adjusting on the sub(s) with a built in eq, or a stand alone one (what exactly does this control--bass only, every speaker, etc.)? I am a bit confused as to what would be adjusted and how and why. Also, how does having a pair of subs affect these adjustments? I have never done anything along these lines before, so this is all new a greek to me at the moment. I am reading up on things, but your help is appreciated. For an example, I looked at SVS PB-12 Plus, which has a built in eq. Is this the type of thing you are referring to? I was looking at the regular version of that without the eq, but it does have dsp. I don't know what, if any help that is. My gut feeling is it does nothing to address what you mentioned. I am trying to keep my spending as low as possible, but no need buying something that doesn't work correctly. I will ultimately decide what I prefer and can afford, but examples are welcomed. I don't have the space to go bigger than a 12" sub, and woulld prefer smaller, but I need the lower output, or so I think.
Not space or time to answer all this responsibly. The EQ in the SVS PB-12 Plus is manual and has only one band/filter. That may be useful but it really depends on your room and the sub's placement within it. If you read the manual, SVS points out that you need to perform independent measurements in order to set the PEQ. So, it is probably useful but not simple. DSP is used for many things but, unless it is used for EQ, once cannot assume that is what it is doing.

I was thinking, instead, that you should have an integrated/automated EQ system that encompasses microphone/measurement/EQ and that can either be built-in the sub (see the Paradigm subs that can be used with the Pro Bass Kit http://www.paradigm.com/products-cu...ccessory/model=perfect-bass-kit/page=overview) or the Velodynes with it packaged with the sub (e.g., http://velodyne.com/subwoofers/eq-max-10.html). Alternatively, one can get an accessory autoEQ such as the AntiMode 2.0 (http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml) for dual subs or, for a single sub, there is the Velodyne SMS-1 (used, only, but cheaper) and the AntiMode 8033 (http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml).

As for multiple subs, they help equalize the bass in the room but I think it is premature for you on a limited budget. I would suggest sticking with a single sub and a decent EQ, built-in or external. Would have been easier if you got an AVR with a more competent EQ.
 
Thanks again, Kal. I appreciate the suggestions. I am looking at the Velodyne subs and the SVS with the eq as well. The Velodyne is a bit cheaper at least the one you suggested, and the one you linked is available in 12" also, which is my preference. The three questions I have are: what is the difference (and which is better) between the Velodyne EQ-Max 12 and the Optimum 12. One is sealed and one is bottom ported, and the power output, but I am referring to the eq aspect of them, and which would you suggest for an amateur such as me? Two, what other eq options externally are available, at a more affordable price, considering I would like to eventually have 2 subs.? The price range of the EQ-Max subs (buying a pair of them) is in my budget, btw. Third, how low do I need to go for not only hi rez surround music, but also for quality movie soundtracks? For the size, the SVS appears to test better for lower frequency sounds for movies, but not sure what I should be considering. I am ready to purchase at least one, just not sure which way to go. I don't mean to be annoying, and once again, I am sincerely appreciative of all your help. Your expertise and insight is invaluable, and I can not find unbiased insights like yours from any manufacturer or typical review, so it holds a lot of weight for me. You have the resources, experience, and real world usage of the thngs I inquire about that is extremely difficult to ascertain through materials available to me. Did I mention how much I appreciate your help here?! Ok, I am done ass kissing, but seriously, thanks again!
 
I am hoping that someone else can step in because I do not know these subs (I just picked those randomly from the under-$1K offerings) and would have to do some research to comment on them. Also, I am not familiar with less expensive stuff. So, while I thank you for your compliments, there's nothing specific that I can offer you.
 
Thanks again, Kal. I appreciate the suggestions. I am looking at the Velodyne subs and the SVS with the eq as well. The Velodyne is a bit cheaper at least the one you suggested, and the one you linked is available in 12" also, which is my preference. The three questions I have are: what is the difference (and which is better) between the Velodyne EQ-Max 12 and the Optimum 12. One is sealed and one is bottom ported, and the power output, but I am referring to the eq aspect of them, and which would you suggest for an amateur such as me? Two, what other eq options externally are available, at a more affordable price, considering I would like to eventually have 2 subs.? The price range of the EQ-Max subs (buying a pair of them) is in my budget, btw. Third, how low do I need to go for not only hi rez surround music, but also for quality movie soundtracks? For the size, the SVS appears to test better for lower frequency sounds for movies, but not sure what I should be considering. I am ready to purchase at least one, just not sure which way to go. I don't mean to be annoying, and once again, I am sincerely appreciative of all your help. Your expertise and insight is invaluable, and I can not find unbiased insights like yours from any manufacturer or typical review, so it holds a lot of weight for me. You have the resources, experience, and real world usage of the thngs I inquire about that is extremely difficult to ascertain through materials available to me. Did I mention how much I appreciate your help here?! Ok, I am done ass kissing, but seriously, thanks again!

I have one of the SVS subs here and find that it performs quite well. You won't go wrong with their products.
 
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