StereoMonic - some Mono/Stereo vinyl LP history

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One slightly devious thing could have been done by the discrete quad on vinyl advocates - they could have done one quad mix, no separate stereo mix and built a simple phase reversal matrix encoder (stereo L and R are quad LF and RF and quad LB and RB are encoded using an average of the DynaQuad square and Electro-Voice Stereo-4 encoding coefficients - to avoid IP issues) to make the stereo mix.

The stereo release could be promoted as "get some idea of the quad mix by using just your stereo amp and 1 extra speaker, no fancy matrix decoder, no 4 channels of amplification or 4 speakers needed", this could have hurt the SQ and QS matrix advocates because they must have active decoders and 4 amps + speakers to decode properly, even in their most basic form.


Kirk Bayne
 
One slightly devious thing could have been done by the discrete quad on vinyl advocates - they could have done one quad mix, no separate stereo mix and built a simple phase reversal matrix encoder (stereo L and R are quad LF and RF and quad LB and RB are encoded using an average of the DynaQuad square and Electro-Voice Stereo-4 encoding coefficients - to avoid IP issues) to make the stereo mix.

The stereo release could be promoted as "get some idea of the quad mix by using just your stereo amp and 1 extra speaker, no fancy matrix decoder, no 4 channels of amplification or 4 speakers needed", this could have hurt the SQ and QS matrix advocates because they must have active decoders and 4 amps + speakers to decode properly, even in their most basic form.


Kirk Bayne
Wasn't this Eno's idea in 1982?

https://www.discogs.com/master/6358-Brian-Eno-Ambient-4-On-Land

MC5qcGVn.jpeg
 
Hopefully not too off-topic, but to clarify about 4 channel reel decks. Most simply recorded and played. These were clearly for the quad market, as their existence coincided with the quad era.
However, the TEAC 3340 (and maybe others I don't know of) were specifically made for multitracking at home for musicians, or put another way, though they were capable of quad playback, I've seen little if any sign of a 3340 marketed specifically to quad playback, and many examples of marketing to musicians.
The difference is "simul-sync" switches on the 3340, one could playback from the record head while recording a new track. This kept tracks in sync. Decks marketed toward quad did not, in general, have sync switches to do this.
Here is a Discogs link to a TEAC record from 1974 indicating that this model was marketed to musicians, and not that it was some "happy accident" that musicians started buying quad decks (most quad decks were unusable for true multitracking).
https://www.discogs.com/release/1680558-Dick-Rosmini-Hello-People-Home-Made-With-Teac
 
Hopefully not too off-topic, but to clarify about 4 channel reel decks. Most simply recorded and played. These were clearly for the quad market, as their existence coincided with the quad era.
However, the TEAC 3340 (and maybe others I don't know of) were specifically made for multitracking at home for musicians, or put another way, though they were capable of quad playback, I've seen little if any sign of a 3340 marketed specifically to quad playback, and many examples of marketing to musicians.
The difference is "simul-sync" switches on the 3340, one could playback from the record head while recording a new track. This kept tracks in sync. Decks marketed toward quad did not, in general, have sync switches to do this.
Here is a Discogs link to a TEAC record from 1974 indicating that this model was marketed to musicians, and not that it was some "happy accident" that musicians started buying quad decks (most quad decks were unusable for true multitracking).
https://www.discogs.com/release/1680558-Dick-Rosmini-Hello-People-Home-Made-With-Teac
Adding a relatively simple feature "quadra-sync' on my Akai GX-630DSS didn't make it any less useful as a quad deck. That feature did make it much more useful for home recordists. I bought mine in about 1979 or 1980 when quad was almost dead. The only real other activity at the time was Audionics and then Fosgate with their Tate decoders. I hadn't given the thought of the purchase of such a deck much thought until about that time.

I had started purchasing quad reels shortly before getting the deck mostly from Barclay-Crocker. I continued purchasing until the supply dried up. I'm still kicking myself for not purchasing some of those "Robin" reels.

I actually purchased my S&IC from Michael Robin!
 
Cool. So the Akai GX-630DSS had sync ability, I didn't know that. I think maybe I saw a Dokoder with it also.
I wonder how many consumer decks had that ability before the explosion of home studios with the Portastudio.
When I got my 3340 in '82 I was dimly aware of quad because of my neighbor's car, but I had known about quad reels, that might've been a good time to score some.
 
One problem with making the matrix mix also the stereo mix would rear up its head when broadcasting said record. That record might sound fine if your radio were a stereo model. Things get dicey, though, if you listen on a mono radio. If a particular sound is mixed to center rear, it might be heard with a stereo radio, but will cancel out on a mono radio. It will simply disappear. It's more pronounced with SQ, but can affect any quad matrix system.
 
One problem with making the matrix mix also the stereo mix would rear up its head when broadcasting said record. That record might sound fine if your radio were a stereo model. Things get dicey, though, if you listen on a mono radio. If a particular sound is mixed to center rear, it might be heard with a stereo radio, but will cancel out on a mono radio. It will simply disappear. It's more pronounced with SQ, but can affect any quad matrix system.
Not the much overblown mono compatibility issue again! Actually SQ is more mono compatible than QS. with QS anything panned across the rear is reduced in level. SQ the problem more just centre back, but given that it was considered a prohibited position for most mixes it doesn't really matter.

I think that the BBC wasted time, effort and money in designing their Matrix H system. Their choice of phase angles is very bizarre. I surmise that they were chosen so that the mixed to mono signal levels were exactly identical? Given that they simply used a 60° phase shift in front of a QS decoder for playback, they could've simply used a QS encoder with a CGS unit afterward for encoding, losing very little over actual Matrix H. They could have done that at little to no cost as well!
 
Actually SQ is more mono compatible than QS.

IIRC, one of the main design objectives of SQ was mono folddown compatibility - LF,RF,LB,RB are all at equal levels in mono.

Further thought about the discrete/CD-4 advocates making only a quad mix and using an average of DynaQuad/EV Stereo-4 to encode LB and RB for the stereo release - simple decoding w/just 1 more speaker and it would tend to undercut the SQ and QS advocates - no need to spend a lot of money to hear surround sound + the speaker matrix decoder can provide surround sound from stereo sources too.


Kirk Bayne
 
In the case of stereo, the main problem in the changeover from mono to stereo was getting a good stereo recording to put on the record.

The big problem that made the record companies stop producing quad was the sudden realization that the market for quad was much smaller than the marketing people originally thought.

In addition, the record stores were putting the quad records in special QUADRAPHONIC bin instead of putting them with the other records made by the artist.

If a matrix recording is to be sold, there is no reason why the matrix version could also be the stereo version. Most of the matrix recordings I made were also intended to be played in stereo. The same mixdown works for both.

Actually, I know of many albums in the late '70s that were mixed with this in mind. But the record companies just put the stereo info on the product.

The costs increased when they were making a discrete version for Q8 and also a matrix version for records, cassettes, and FM.. There were three ways to to do it:

1. Create a discrete mix for Q8 and then encode it for the record. This was the cheapest, but often made a less than optimum matrix mix.

2. Create a matrix mix for records, cassettes, and FM, and the decode it for the Q8. Essentially, everyone got the matrix mix.

3. Make two mixes, one optimum for discrete for the Q8, and one optimum for matrix for records, cassettes, and FM. This cost a lot more in engineer and studio time.
If SQ is the matrix to be used, I agree with a separate mix for the matrix. But if QS is the system of choice, the discrete mix will work quite well. QS will provide a wider stereo effect by placing rear sounds beyond the stereo speakers, while slightly narrowing the front channel sounds. This also reduces the likelihood of center rear cancellation if heard in mono. SQ pulls the rear channel sounds to a point between the stereo speakers, which sounds fine in stereo, but less so on mono systems. No matrix is perfect; we know that. It's all a matter of which one does a better job. I've experimented with encoding in both systems, and have found QS to be more faithful to the discrete source I used.
 
Hopefully not too off-topic, but to clarify about 4 channel reel decks. Most simply recorded and played. These were clearly for the quad market, as their existence coincided with the quad era.
However, the TEAC 3340 (and maybe others I don't know of) were specifically made for multitracking at home for musicians, or put another way, though they were capable of quad playback, I've seen little if any sign of a 3340 marketed specifically to quad playback, and many examples of marketing to musicians.
The difference is "simul-sync" switches on the 3340, one could playback from the record head while recording a new track. This kept tracks in sync. Decks marketed toward quad did not, in general, have sync switches to do this.
Here is a Discogs link to a TEAC record from 1974 indicating that this model was marketed to musicians, and not that it was some "happy accident" that musicians started buying quad decks (most quad decks were unusable for true multitracking).
https://www.discogs.com/release/1680558-Dick-Rosmini-Hello-People-Home-Made-With-Teac

The TCA-40 was the original 4-channel TEAC reel machine. It did not have simul-sync. Then the home studio makers requested a deck with simul-sync, the TCA-43 was first. The TCA-40 was marketed for quad. Both were available by 1972.

(I corrected model numbers)

Like I said, TEAC caught on to the real reason 4-channel reel recorders sold well early in the game.

One problem with making the matrix mix also the stereo mix would rear up its head when broadcasting said record. That record might sound fine if your radio were a stereo model. Things get dicey, though, if you listen on a mono radio. If a particular sound is mixed to center rear, it might be heard with a stereo radio, but will cancel out on a mono radio. It will simply disappear. It's more pronounced with SQ, but can affect any quad matrix system.

My quad mixes are made with the disappearing back in mono in mind.

I think that the BBC wasted time, effort and money in designing their Matrix H system. Their choice of phase angles is very bizarre. I surmise that they were chosen so that the mixed to mono signal levels were exactly identical?

Actually, H was designed to keep the center back from disappearing in mono.

They were working with so-called "great circle" matrix systems. A great circle system has all of the encoded loci of a sound circling the listener in a circle on the Poincare sphere.

qso-ds.jpg


In this diagram of the Poincare sphere:
Olive is the locus of phonograph lateral recording (center in stereo)
Violet is vertical recording (center back in QS and SQ)
Cyan is the left channel in stereo (far side of sphere as shown).
Red is the right channel in stereo (near side of sphere).
Black is the clockwise rotation of SQ left back.
Brown is the anticlockwise rotation of SQ right back.

qsp-psax.jpg


- QS (Matrix A) has olive F, red R, violet B and cyan L
- SQ has olive F, red RF, brown RB, violet B, black LB, and cyan LF (not great circle).
- BMX (Matrix F) has black F, red R, Brown B, and cyan L.
- Matrix H has tan F, red R, sea B, and cyan L.
- UHJ has green F and purple B. (R and L are close to red and cyan - not great circle).

They wanted a matrix where back sounds do not disappear in mono play.
- QS (Matrix A) and SQ (Matrix B) have back sounds that disappear in mono play.
- They started with BMX (Matrix F), which plays all directions at the same level in mono.
- BMX produces a very phasey stereo image without a decoder.
- Next they tried Matrix H. No sounds disappear in mono, and stereo is much less phasey.
- The sound of Matrix H is still too phasey for good stereo.
- The next level (after the trials) is UHJ. It is much less phasey and back does not disappear.
 
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This isn't quite a direct answer to your question, early on in the stereo era there were stereo 45s that never quite caught on and were eventually abandoned:
Early Stereo Singles Discography (1958-1961)
They didn't catch on because they would be damaged by playing them with the mono cartridges of the day, and there weren't all that many stereo record players yet at affordable prices.When record player manufacturers switched to stereo-compatible cartridges in mono players, ones with both a stereo stylus, as well as the vertical compliance to play stereo records without damaging the grooves, stereo 45's were reintroduced. Playing stereo records with an old mono cartridge would result in an increase of surface noise, which would show up when the record would be subsequently played on a stereo player.
 
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Maybe I"m in the wrong place here.
3440 was the successor to the 3340 versions, and it did in fact have simul-sync. This is easily confirmed.
Why spread confusing or wrong info? This is a public forum. I only post this for disambiguation in future readers.
 
Maybe I"m in the wrong place here.
3440 was the successor to the 3340 versions, and it did in fact have simul-sync. This is easily confirmed.
Why spread confusing or wrong info? This is a public forum. I only post this for disambiguation in future readers.

Sorry. Wrong model number. It was the TCA-40. It's been 50 years and my memory on this is a little bit zxnrbled.

There were also the TCA-41 and TCA-42 before the first one with simul-sync, the TCA-43.

I saw a pic of the 3440 and thought it was the late version of the the 42. Where are the simul-sync switches on the 3440? I can't find them in the pic..
 
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True about the quad on vinyl format war, although it seemed that the record companies were moving toward making CD-4 the standard, a few record companies switched from a matrix system to CD-4, but no record company switched from CD-4 to a matrix system.




Kirk Bayne


Project 3 , did.
They went EV-4 ,QS ,CD-4 ,and finally SQ.
 
IIRC, one of the main design objectives of SQ was mono folddown compatibility - LF,RF,LB,RB are all at equal levels in mono.

Further thought about the discrete/CD-4 advocates making only a quad mix and using an average of DynaQuad/EV Stereo-4 to encode LB and RB for the stereo release - simple decoding w/just 1 more speaker and it would tend to undercut the SQ and QS advocates - no need to spend a lot of money to hear surround sound + the speaker matrix decoder can provide surround sound from stereo sources too.


Kirk Bayne
That would also be true of QS, (corner signals only). Pure RM, Dyna and EV-4 would all reproduce with lower levels from the back channels in mono.

Edit: actually QS would be something like a 4.6dB reduction in level at the back corner positions, but still not bad. Consider that summing stereo to mono increases center front by 6dB.
 
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I was thinking simplicity - just using phase reversals to encode LB and RB for the stereo release , no time spent on a separate stereo mix and not compromising the discrete quad mix, mono folddown/compatibility would be what it is.

(stereo to mono folddown is fraught with problems too, since there can be any phase relationship between L and R, the resulting mono may be missing some sounds)

Maybe RCA and the WEA group could have been convinced to do this sort of simple encoding for their dual inventory stereo LPs if they became convinced they could slow down the adoption of SQ and QS.


Kirk Bayne
 
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