The 'three' 5.1 mixes of King Crimson's RED

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ssully

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Here is the title track 'Red' from

1) the 2009 DVD-A 5.1 mix
2) the 2013 Road To Red 5.1 mix
3) the 2024 BluRay DTS-MA 5.1

2009 DVD-A
REd_DVDA.png


2013 Road2Red
RED_Road2Red.png


2024 BluRay
RED_2024.png
 
The LFE in #1 and #2 are different. The first mix LFE has no spectral content above ~200 Hz; this looks like a mix with Dolby/DTS LFE bandwidth.
Mix 2 LFE has content up to ~500 Hz.

As far as the other channels of Mix 1 and 2 go, I haven't bothered, as they cursorily look and sound similar

Mix 3 is obviously a total rethink. And the LFE is full bandwidth, a silly thing SW has been doing, though great for learning the bass part.
 
What I assume is the center track on the bluray is not used much. I think there's a moog playing in the center for most of the song on the 2009 5.1 mix I have.
There's no moog on that track (or album). There's a cello or perhaps a double bass in the middle of 'Red'.
 
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There's no moog on that track (or album). There's a cello or perhaps a double bass in the middle of 'Red'.
It's admittedly been a long while since I listened to the surround mix. I do recall the center being 'busy'.

**I was actually thinking of Starless, and it's the mellotron I was thinking of in my haste to type words. Double whammy.**
 
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Mix 3 is obviously a total rethink. And the LFE is full bandwidth, a silly thing SW has been doing, though great for learning the bass part.
I hadn't considered the cutoffs different engineers might choose to use and how that could impact playback, I just always assumed whatever cutoff was above my crossover setting. On my system where the sub carries a bulk of the low end load, this probably translates positively to having a fuller/richer bottom end when no crossover is used, but I do wonder if it hypes some of the frequencies that overlap with the other channels on those same systems that don't use a crossover.
 
I hadn't considered the cutoffs different engineers might choose to use and how that could impact playback, I just always assumed whatever cutoff was above my crossover setting. On my system where the sub carries a bulk of the low end load, this probably translates positively to having a fuller/richer bottom end when no crossover is used, but I do wonder if it hypes some of the frequencies that overlap with the other channels on those same systems that don't use a crossover.
Chances are there 's always a crossover in use in your system, somewhere.

On typical systems with a subwoofer, there is a strong low pass filter (LPF) function in the AVR that operates only on the LFE channel before the signal goes to the sub This filter is often called the 'LPF for LFE' in AVR user manuals. Typical default setting is 120 Hz (which is also the bandwidth of the LFE in Dolby 5.1 mixes), though some AVRs give users a choice of settings. Denons offer settings from 80 to 250 Hz.

(NB this is NOT the bass management setting -- usually recommended to be 80 Hz. That's the freqency at which the AVR splits bass out from the 'small' front and surround channels, to be sent to the subwoofer. A different thing! And a different setting in your AVR, see below.)

Thus, for a typical system with a subwoofer, it doesn't much matter what higher frequency content above ~250Hz the mixer sticks into an LFE track. It gets filtered out by the LPF for LFE.

Of course in a bass managed system, in addition the LFE content, the subwoofer also sees redirected bass from 'small' main and surround channels, eg. content below 80z (the usual recommended setting). This crossover can ALSO be set higher in the AVR...as high as 250 Hz on Denons (and as low as 40 Hz).

And finally on top of all that, the subwoofer itself will have a built-in low pass filter, usually a variable 'crossover' dial. Usually it's best to turn this 'off' if possible. The subs I've owned never had an 'off' switch for theirs, so best practice is to set it as high as it goes. Which is usually again....~250 Hz. The subwoofer only 'allows in' content below this.

So, the interaction between LPF for LFE setting, bass management crossover, and the subwoofer's own low pass filtering, is something to consider when pondering what will be coming out of your subwoofer.
The upshot is that:
- the subwoofer itself will never output much content above (at most ) 250 Hz. At some stage, virtually everything above that, from any channel, gets filtered out by one means or another ('much' and 'virtually' because filters aren't necessarily brick walls, they are steep roll-offs).
- But allowing, e.g., 250Hz instead of 120Hz into subwoofer output, certainly could make a sonic difference. That's a whole octave of audio.
- But keep in mind, the stronger the >80Hz content of the subwoofer output is, the more likely you are to 'locate' the subwoofer in the room, which usually you don't want to do.

What I'm not sure of is what happens to LFE in systems that run full range speakers, no subwoofer. There, to hear the LFE content, it needs to be folded into main channels. Does LPF for LFE act then? I don't know!
 
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What I'm not sure of is what happens to LFE in systems that run full range speakers, no subwoofer. There, to hear the LFE content, it needs to be folded into main channels. Does LPF for LFE act then? I don't know! If not, then only the subwoofer's own filter will 'tame' high frequency LFE content.
[I'm hitting a rough patch reading too quickly and responding even quicker]

I doubt there's many people ( * ) into surround with a 4 or 5 speaker setup and no sub/no center. Most of the people who like quad run various amps and configs, but when it comes to 5.1 or more channels they still have the other speakers ready and able to reproduce things as intended. Not entirely sure there would be actual benefits (aside from psychoacoustic or just psycho reasons) trying to effectively remix things from a superior discrete format down into fewer discrete channels. The rub for some of the recent quad releases has been getting all the content to play as quad on those actual-quad-systems. One of those members (those exceptions to the general rule) would have to explain their strategy for overcoming the challenges.

I want to say Mike (Life In Surround) went into some of this in his quad setup video.

( * ) I'm sure this will bring them all out of the woodwork though.
 
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[I'm hitting a rough patch reading too quickly and responding even quicker]

I doubt there's many people ( * ) into surround with a 4 or 5 speaker setup and no sub/no center.

They certainly exist on QQ.

(I edited my post above to remove some nonsense at the end)
 
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