TIDAL unveils Sony 360 Reality Audio

[bracelis]

Converted it to 7.1.4? What does that even mean? Atmos? DTS:X? Just some WAV files?

Convert it to multi-channel WAV so that you can play the 360 files on the desktop (either as 7.1.4 or 5.1).

I think what people want to know is whether there will be any support to output as Atmos or X on a home AVR system or AVR support for the mode. Otherwise, the system is more or less worthless as a playback medium for music outside headphones.

It's just like Atmos and DTS-X.

Some Denon/Marantz receivers/processers already support MPEG-H 3D (although not the 110V/120V models):
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...rmat-to-Denon-Marantz-Home-Theater-Components
So what's missing now are:
(1) The streaming devices (and their operating system, example Fire OS, Android, AppleOS) to support the format
(2) Tidal to update the Tidal app on those streaming devices to support bitstreaming 360 to the AVR (the same way it does with Atmos).

And one thing that I showed is that although they are currently available on mobile/headphones, Echo, and the new Sony device, the files are "real" multi channel / immersive files just like Atmos and I'm able to listen to the individual, discrete tracks/channels.

Also note that we cannot even decode Atmos or DTS-X on the desktop (Win or Mac) -- you'll need to send it to the AVR for processing.
But with this decoder, you can actually play 360 on the desktop without an AVR -- if you have the height speakers.
You don't need a full 7.1.4 setup -- for example I have a quad + 2 height speaker setup, so I can route the x.x.4 height channels to the two height speakers. So I'm able to play the songs on the Windows desktop with or without the height speakers.

 

[MagnumX]

So once again if you live in the US, it’s pretty much worthless. Got it.

I won’t jump through hoops for Sony like some trained dolphin. They want me to buy surround music then they should support something I can use.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Someone was able to get hold of the Sony 360 / MPEG-H 3D encoder/decoder library/utilities (Windows or Mac).
I tested it on "Love Is The Message" by MFSB which is one of the many Sony 360 songss on Tidal, and converted it to 7.1.4 and 5.1 WAV.

View attachment 66571

This is the media info on the 360 file:

Format :	MPEG-H 3D Audio
Format profile :	LC@L3
Codec ID :	mha1
Duration :	6 min 41 s
Bit rate :	666 kb/s
Channel(s) :	12 channels (7.1.4)
Channel layout :	L R C LFE Lb Rb Lss Rss Tfl Tfr Tbl Tbr
Sampling rate :	48.0 kHz
Frame rate :	46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Source stream size :	31.9 MiB (99%)
Signal group #1 :	4 objects
Type :	Object
Number of objects :	4 objects
Codec configuration box :	mhaC

You can convert the track so that the channel layout of the WAV output is the same as the input 360 file (7.1.4).
Since this is from a quad source, we see the
* L/R channels,
* empty Center/LFE channels,
* the L/R rear channels,
* two Top (ceiling) Front channels (I'm assuming this is just an upmix)
* and the other top extra two channels which are empty.

Output WAV file:
View attachment 66572


The decoder has the option to output a 6-channel (5.1) WAV (i.e. downmix).
Again the Center and LFE channels are empty, so now we have the quad.
And of course we can convert it to FLAC to reduce the file size.

WAV:
View attachment 66573


This is one is an example of a recent track, where all the 7.1.4 channels have audio (except the LFE).
And you can also convert it to 5.1.

View attachment 66574

Note:
The decoder is not intended for consumers -- so I won't put any information here on how to obtain the decoder.
And you can only use the decoder if you have the 360 track/file.
I'm only posting this as information about the Sony 360 audio format and what's possible.

Thanks for the info, very interesting.

So the two height front channels on the MFSB song are just some reduced/lower amplitude shadowing of the fronts to help bring the music a little out into the room? Or can they be some info from both fronts and rears firing as objects with specific audio?

Seems there are at least two camps of folks here; one, that feel they are being cheated and lied to for not utilizing this new format to present a new full channel mixed song to them.

And two, those that may feel it’s great to have the opportunity to finally hear the quad release of this music (if they can have the option of turning off the height speakers if they want?)
And if the person doing the added height mixing knows what they’re doing, is providing an option for some more depth to the music, if you can appreciate the original quad being altered and not a purist.

 

[bracelis]

So the two height front channels on the MFSB song are just some reduced/lower amplitude shadowing of the fronts to help bring the music a little out into the room? Or can they be some info from both fronts and rears firing as objects with specific audio?

I just checked the 360 version of the Aerosmith quad from 'Get Your Wings' discussed in this thread
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/aerosmith-get-your-wings.30384/
I highlighted below the discrete guitar solo on the rear right channel which starts at 2:18 -- it is not on the top front channels.

Seems there are at least two camps of folks here; one, that feel they are being cheated and lied to for not utilizing this new format to present a new full channel mixed song to them.

And two, those that may feel it’s great to have the opportunity to finally hear the quad release of this music (if they can have the option of turning off the height speakers if they want?)
And if the person doing the added height mixing knows what they’re doing, is providing an option for some more depth to the music, if you can appreciate the original quad being altered and not a purist.

Or another way to look at it is simply that you either
- know / care about quad,
- or you don't know / don't care.

 

[fredblue]

so the process takes the 4-channel Quad original that has been encoded into 2-channel 360 Reality Audio and decodes that 2-channel encode back into Quad with all 4-channel
info the same as the original?

doesn't it sound sort of like a matrix system?
only a discrete one?

if it is one that doesn't lose anything in the process of squeezing 4 into 2 and then unsqueezing it back into 4 again, then, erm.. WOW!!

 

[KMO]

I've read about Sony's 360 format, it appears to be a 2-channel based system that will eventually offer a customized binaural template to match up with your particular head size for headphone use.

Sony's been doing this 3D thing thing for a while now, in the Playstation Platinum headphones, and in the PSVR.

It's okay for the headphones with normal games - the game produces Atmos-like 3D sound objects, and headphones do binaural rendering.

It's extremely effective for PSVR, because you've got head-tracking. The 3D sound field moves with your head movement, so you can localise sounds properly.

The binaural trick doesn't really work so well if your small head movements don't change what you hear.

 

[KMO]

Ah, got it. I was concerned this was pure Sony propietary. But if it is MPEG-H, then sure. It's effectively non-proprietary Atmos.

 

[bracelis]

so the process takes the 4-channel Quad original that has been encoded into 2-channel 360 Reality Audio and decodes that 2-channel encode back into Quad with all 4-channel
info the same as the original?

doesn't it sound sort of like a matrix system?
only a discrete one?

if it is one that doesn't lose anything in the process of squeezing 4 into 2 and then unsqueezing it back into 4 again, then, erm.. WOW!!

No, if you look at the WAV screenshot of a recent song and the info on the audio, it has 7.1.4 discrete channels ( or possibly 7.1 channels + 4 objects).
The MSFB one is also 7.1.4, except the source/master is the original quad mix. So it has the discrete quad channels, and they kind of 'raised' the front channels to the top/height front speakers. And if I convert it to a 5.1 format (which will probably downmix the top/front height channels to the front channels, then you get 4 channels and empty Center/LFE.
Or as JPUPSTER was saying, you can also play the 7.1.4 audio and just turn off the top front channels, which is just an upmix of the front channels anyway.

On a mobile/headphones, although the output is two channels, the 360 source is 7.1.4.

Which is different from Atmos:
With Tidal Atmos on mobile/headphones, the file itself is encoded differently (2 channels with simulated immersive).
Whereas the Firestick / Apple TV version is a Dolby Digitial+ ( 5.1 + Atmos).

With 360 on mobile/headphones, the conversion from 7.1.4 to simulated 2-channel happens on the fly while the song is played.
Which is probably why some mentioned in this same thread that 360 sounds terrible compared to Atmos on mobile/headphones.
And right now I believe only the Sony mobile phones do the conversion properly -- but I also believe that there is a development / work being done so that the proper decoding is built into Android, so that it works on any Android device ( mobile phones, and possibly the Nvidia TV devices that run on Android, and maybe even the Firestick, which uses a version of Android).

 

[Old Quad Guy]

No, if you look at the WAV screenshot of a recent song and the info on the audio, it has 7.1.4 discrete channels ( or possibly 7.1 channels + 4 objects).
The MSFB one is also 7.1.4, except the source/master is the original quad mix. So it has the discrete quad channels, and they kind of 'raised' the front channels to the top/height front speakers. And if I convert it to a 5.1 format (which will probably downmix the top/front height channels to the front channels, then you get 4 channels and empty Center/LFE.
Or as JPUPSTER was saying, you can also play the 7.1.4 audio and just turn off the top front channels, which is just an upmix of the front channels anyway.

On a mobile/headphones, although the output is two channels, the 360 source is 7.1.4.

Which is different from Atmos:
With Tidal Atmos on mobile/headphones, the file itself is encoded differently (2 channels with simulated immersive).
Whereas the Firestick / Apple TV version is a Dolby Digitial+ ( 5.1 + Atmos).

Do we know how many of these type of Quads are there? The Aerosmith titles would be great. “Free for All” and “Bridge Over Troubled Water.” BOTW was supposed to get a Japanese SACD release, but got pulled at the last minute. Thanks.

 

[KMO]

With 360 on mobile/headphones, the conversion from 7.1.4 to simulated 2-channel happens on the fly while the song is played.

Yeah, there's no point doing that on the fly, if it's a fixed presentation. Although maybe what they can do on the fly is no worse than what they can do offline.

I've never been impressed by any of these "present surround binaurally through headphones" things. It's the same sort of fakery as stereographic 3D.

The illusion doesn't work properly because it doesn't respond to head movement. You can't move your head to see around things, or move your head to localise sounds. The world is "strapped to your head".

But integrated into VR, both the 3D and the binaural sound does work. You can look around things, and you can turn your head to hear where something is coming from - hear a sound, move your head slightly to localise it, then look up towards it.

But just surround to headphones, with centre always in front of your nose? Meh.

 

[bracelis]

Do we know how many of these type of Quads are there? The Aerosmith titles would be great. “Free for All” and “Bridge Over Troubled Water.” BOTW was supposed to get a Japanese SACD release, but got pulled at the last minute. Thanks.

I did a quick search and they have these in 360:

Aerosmith - Get Your Wings
Aerosmith - Rocks
Aerosmith - Toys In The Attic

Paul Simon - Paul Simon
Paul Simon - There Goes Rhymin' Simon
Simon & Garfunkel - Bridge Over Troubled Water

I didn't find any Ted Nugent, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have any
Or it could have been there but was removed. For example I thought I saw some Barbara Streisand before but I don't see any now. Or maybe the search is not working properly (using a mobile phone).

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I did a quick search and they have these in 360:

Aerosmith - Get Your Wings
Aerosmith - Rocks
Aerosmith - Toys In The Attic

Paul Simon - Paul Simon
Paul Simon - There Goes Rhymin' Simon
Simon & Garfunkel - Bridge Over Troubled Water

I didn't find any Ted Nugent, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have any
Or it could have been there but was removed. For example I thought I saw some Barbara Streisand before but I don't see any now. Or maybe the search is not working properly (using a mobile phone).

How’s the sound quality of the Get Your Wings? Something like a typical Q8 conversion ( even if done from a converted R2R) still isn’t the cleanest sounding thing going. So to have these in a clean, to digital transfer (at what - 48kHz / 24bit) would be great to have access to. Who knows if they’ll ever release these as 7” SACDs.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I’m not clear now on what this Sony format utilizes, will they have music “mixed” discretely by someone into the height channels; or will it all be just chip processed up-mixing up there?

 

[bracelis]

I’m not clear now on what this Sony format utilizes, will they have music “mixed” discretely by someone into the height channels; or will it all be just chip processed up-mixing up there?

It's just like mixing in Atmos, and you can place/pan any audio object in the 3d space -- if you have the discrete source masters/tracks that you can use as the audio source for the objects.
Maybe we should not think about the quad source as an example - that's different because they only have the 'final' quad mix/master to work with, so they have no choice but to upmix if they want to put something in the height speakers.

Also it's a more modern/efficient code, and has additional features.

For example, it can be used for broadcast TV.
You can have multiple languages in the same audio stream, and you can select the language within the same audio stream.

Compare that to blu ray discs, where you can select Atmos / English.
But if you select French, it's just 5.1 or 2.0 -- so it's a completely different track.

With MPEG-H 3d, you can have one 'immersive' track, and you can select the language within the same track.

And you can adjust the dialog volume independently, which is different from simply adjusting the center channel level (which would also raise the volume of everything else in the center channel, so it's not very useful), and different from applying some EQ to make the dialog clearer, which is also bad because it also changes the EQ of the audio as a whole. I guess you can do this because the dialog is a separate audio object which is not attached to a particular channel or channels, but an independent audio object that you can manipulate (i.e. put in a certain location in a 3d space, regardless of the channel/speaker configuration, and you can adjust the level/volume of the object independently).

And the bitrate might be slightly lower than the normal/common Dolby Digital+/Atmos bitrate used in streaming, but it's more efficient.

 

[bracelis]

How’s the sound quality of the Get Your Wings? Something like a typical Q8 conversion ( even if done from a converted R2R) still isn’t the cleanest sounding thing going. So to have these in a clean, to digital transfer (at what - 48kHz / 24bit) would be great to have access to. Who knows if they’ll ever release these as 7” SACDs.

Sounds clean to me -- I've never listened to a conversion from an old quad, so I cannot compare.
But it will be just like any recent Sony Japan / Dutton Vocalion quad SACD release -- the quality will depend on the quad masters.

I will try to compare Toys in the Attic, 360 vs the 2003 SACD.

 

[sjcorne]

WAV:

I just checked my Q8 and this definitely looks like the quad mix. Wow!

I will try to compare Toys in the Attic, 360 vs the 2003 SACD.

An easy giveaway that it's the quad version and not the new 5.1 would be in "Walk This Way"--the quad version has the guitar solos coming from one of the back corners, whereas they're upfront on the new mix. Can you check Rocks as well?

 

[fredblue]

Sounds clean to me -- I've never listened to a conversion from an old quad, so I cannot compare.
But it will be just like any recent Sony Japan / Dutton Vocalion quad SACD release -- the quality will depend on the quad masters.

I will try to compare Toys in the Attic, 360 vs the 2003 SACD.

afaik the Toys In The Attic SACD had a new mix not the old Quad?

 

[fredblue]

I just checked my Q8 and this definitely looks like the quad mix. Wow!

View attachment 66584



An easy giveaway that it's the quad version and not the new 5.1 would be in "Walk This Way"--the quad version has the guitar solos coming from one of the back corners, whereas they're upfront on the new mix. Can you check Rocks as well?

maybe not identical but very similar..

 

[fredblue]

I did a quick search and they have these in 360:

Aerosmith - Get Your Wings
Aerosmith - Rocks
Aerosmith - Toys In The Attic

Paul Simon - Paul Simon
Paul Simon - There Goes Rhymin' Simon
Simon & Garfunkel - Bridge Over Troubled Water

I didn't find any Ted Nugent, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have any
Or it could have been there but was removed. For example I thought I saw some Barbara Streisand before but I don't see any now. Or maybe the search is not working properly (using a mobile phone).

feels like clean 5.1 decodes of the Paul Simon's would be a pretty big deal since its said he won't allow anything out there now but the Stereo?

 

[fredblue]

I just checked my Q8 and this definitely looks like the quad mix. Wow!

View attachment 66584



An easy giveaway that it's the quad version and not the new 5.1 would be in "Walk This Way"--the quad version has the guitar solos coming from one of the back corners, whereas they're upfront on the new mix. Can you check Rocks as well?

i imagine the obvious thing straightaway with Rocks would be if it does all the round the room panning on "Back In The Saddle"?