2 Speakers are better than 5.1?

[MidiMagic]

So there's a ray of hope but it's firmly behind a wall of bureaucracy and service to shareholders.

I guess I want both!

Like you said, I want any music I produce to be accessible to the lowest common denominator and genuinely still delivering the music. Focus on the music itself.

Boy o boy though I really like the ambitiousness of turning things up to 11!
Sorry, I meant 12.

It's an extension of the surround play we were already going overboard with starting with quad. It's purely the grifting over the decoder software that torques me. Actually pony up the money to spend on 12 speakers and then you get hit by that before you can listen to a single note.

There are a lot of options for speakers and amps that can be set up and dialed in for a reference system without getting into mono block amps and speakers like Adams or B&W.

I want music to be accessible for everyone too. This means a two-channel recording medium. This means matrix encoding for surround sound. And I have recordings that achieve 3-dimensional surround sound with an addition to PLII.

Another thing that annoys me is that everyone is devising new media and players. I really want to have a single medium for all of my music and another single medium for all of my videos. They won't let me, because they keep discontinuing media formats. They don't care that people have old recordings they want to hear.

There are too many people who seem to think that anything over 10 years old is not worth listening to, so they want you to buy your favorites again in the new media. But most of my favorite records were never reissued as CDs.

The same thing happens to computers . My current computer can't run any of the software I paid good money for 10 years ago. It's all panned obsolescence.

 

[Sal1950]

The main point I really want to drive home is that most people don't sit down and listen to music these days, it remains in the background.

Right but I'm not so sure how much it's actually changed. I believe I mentioned earlier that even back in the day when most everyone had a receiver and 2 speakers for stereo, only the enthusiasts like us actually bothered to set them up correctly and then sit and listen, paying attention to the imaging, etc.
And then even here, there are some who are more serious about having things "just right" and others that don't care that much. Personally, when I talk "room treatment" it's not just looking to control slap echo and the overall amount of decay time in the room with furniture, rugs, etc. I look to dampen the points of first reflection for each speaker to "sharpen the focus" of the imaging as best as possible, etc. It becomes ever more difficult when we expand from 2ch into 5 or 7 to 1 or more. I don't have the money for a dedicated room and such, I dearly wish I could. I only do what I can but to some it would seem extreme. If I was married it would probably be difficult to impossible to do a few of the things I have. We all chose the level of dedication that will fit into our life's.

 

[jimfisheye]

This is why I make comments about the planned obsolescence crap I see!
If that makes me resident curmudgeon... well, someone has to do it!

In hindsight, the computer as music server has worked out really well for me! New formats are just a new piece of software. I tend to keep archives in non proprietary formats when possible like flac. So most of the collection is in flac. A handful of alac (Apple version of flac). Everything is constantly backed up. This is why I'll probably rip Atmos 7.1.4 mixes to wavpack.
Software spoofing is over the top insane right now!

Mac was the only audio computer choice early on. And Jobs-era Apple was VERY different from post Jobs Apple! I have my current 2011 Macbook Pro triple booting at present: Snow Leopard (10.6.8), High Sierra (10.13.6), & Monterey (12.2.1). All my software back to 2005 or so is still right under my fingers! (A newer graphics card in my Mac Pro tower means no booting Snow Leopard on that machine anymore though.) I have 2nd identical backup machines for both.

The only thing I feel like I don't have access to that seems like something worthwhile is HomerJAU's MMH app!

A lot of folks around here seem to be in a very different world with Windows boxes and stand alone players and receivers like it's the 1970s!

 

[Sal1950]

Another thing that annoys me is that everyone is devising new media and players. I really want to have a single medium for all of my music and another single medium for all of my videos.

Who won't let you? You could stick with mono, 2ch, upsampling, or whatever floats your boat.
I know your not happy the PLII has disappeared, but it's been replaced by 3 or 5 other upsampling codec. Many complain about the demise of Logic 7 or whatever. Can't you fine one of the new ones your happy with? I do. I'm sure the designing engineers thought the newer ones were an improvement, those you get for free in most cases.

This is why I make comments about the planned obsolescence crap I see!

In HiFi is it really "planned obsolescence"?
I was thrilled when 2ch was expanded into Quad. Later 5&7.1 may not have been a game changer for music but it sure can be for video. Then when Atmos came out and I was able to upgrade my system to take advantage of it, I was once again thrilled by much of the new music mastering being done to both old and new recordings.
Sure, the manufacturers are always looking to bring something new to market in hopes of selling more gear, media, etc. But if the general public doesn't accept and buy into it, it dies. Remember what happened to Quad, DVD-A and others?
But in general, I'm over the moon happy with the advancement in audio media and SQ over the last 50-60 years. I sure as hell don't want to go back to a 2ch vinyl only world.

 

[jimfisheye]

Thinking of computers and post-Jobs Apple with the planned obsolescence comment.

I guess it's just good old fashioned competition with everything audio!
All the different vinyl formats 100 years ago now. Wasn't there an early cassette that was 1/8" different size shell? Beta vs VHS. Digital comes along (PCM) so Sony takes notes and then runs off to make a different digital language to do the same thing (DSD). Format wars everywhere!
Aside: Lots of interesting rabbit holes to go down on Youtube with old tech!

I feel like the computer taking over and becoming a modular media tool freaked out a lot of the industry really bad and they're struggling to try to undo that and return everyone to stand alone hardware devices. Still with internal programming, computer device style, but locked away from the consumer and spoofed to hide things.

So Dolby going hard to keep Atmos decoding locked into rogue hardware devices is a new awful twist on all this.

 

[Owen Smith]

Youngsters seem to dislike stereo, forget about surround, in my experience. One earbud, mono Bluetooth speakers is the norm. Many mixes these days also have most elements center-panned. Amateur mixing engineers are emphasizing mono compatibly more than ever right now. I don't even consider mono compatibility.

Recently I tried showing a friend the difference between stereo and surround. They immediately responded on how amazed they were at the directionality and movement. And then I had to inform them...that I hadn't played the surround yet. It was the stereo. For comparison to the surround. 😭

I know, it's completely heart breaking that this drive to almost mono has happened.

The main point I really want to drive home is that most people don't sit down and listen to music these days, it remains in the background. That is the fundamental shift in music consumption IMO that has caused the reduction of speakers in the average consumer system.

This too is very sad. I have conversations at work with colleagues in their 20s and 30s along the lines of them asking what I did the previous evening. When I reply I listended to a couple of albums, first of all they find it a bit strange that I listened to complete albums rather than picking tracks. Then they ask what I was doing at the time. "Listening to the albums".

 

[Sal1950]

So Dolby going hard to keep Atmos decoding locked into rogue hardware devices is a new awful twist on all this.

Yea, and we mostly still can't download-save the streamers in a bit perfect manner with paying for it or a continued sub. We will. LOL

 

[weekendtoy]

A lot written about the listening room. Most of us have a typical listening room that while not perfect is likely not that bad either. Carpet drapes and soft furnishings all help to reduce excessive reflections. The only really bad sounding rooms I've encountered are large mostly empty, hard walls etc. I have never felt the need to treat my own listening room. I don't think that listening inside an anechoic chamber would be very satisfying!

The room doesn't have to be an anechoic chamber, which of course is never the goal of treating a room. An RT60 graph in REW can tell you where you are at and where you need to be.

Carpeting and furnishing don't hurt, but treating reflection points is one of the most cost effective ways to improve your listening experience.

Treat a couple of areas, measure, rinse and repeat as necessary.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

This too is very sad. I have conversations at work with colleagues in their 20s and 30s along the lines of them asking what I did the previous evening. When I reply I listended to a couple of albums, first of all they find it a bit strange that I listened to complete albums rather than picking tracks. Then they ask what I was doing at the time. "Listening to the albums".

Oh my god, this exactly. Everybody gives me weird looks when I say I listen to entire albums instead of tracks. Then get MORE weird looks for saying I sit down and listen to music and focus on the music instead of doing something while the music is playing. 😭

 

[par4ken]

Another thing that annoys me is that everyone is devising new media and players. I really want to have a single medium for all of my music and another single medium for all of my videos. They won't let me, because they keep discontinuing media formats. They don't care that people have old recordings they want to hear.

That's two mediums/players one for audio the other for video. Once again I have to suggest simply get a universal player and it will do everything. You will only need one player.

Alternatively or instead rip everything to your computer (you don't need the latest and greatest) and things become even easier. You play the files rather than wearing out your player! You can convert all to the same format if you want.

 

[Sal1950]

Oh my god, this exactly. Everybody gives me weird looks when I say I listen to entire albums instead of tracks.

+500. IMHO, just listening to a few tracks on an album is like only looking a bit's and pieces of a painting. Music via albums from truly talented artists is the full masterpiece'

 

[Soundfield]

Sonic holography is next-generation stereo, plain and simple.

Hmmm, it has been 'next generation' for decades. It's basically just cross channel bleeding and is almost as old as stereo itself. It's one of those things that keeps being re-invented every few years or so and given another fancy name. Whatever it gets called, it soon disappears again when its artefacts and practical limitations are noticed once more.

 

[AYanguas]

Oh my god, this exactly. Everybody gives me weird looks when I say I listen to entire albums instead of tracks. Then get MORE weird looks for saying I sit down and listen to music and focus on the music instead of doing something while the music is playing. 😭

+500. IMHO, just listening to a few tracks on an album is like only looking a bit's and pieces of a painting. Music via albums from truly talented artists is the full masterpiece'

+1
I think only some old music lovers, audio hobbyists, classical/jazz/prog rock fans and retirees within the previous categories can do this.

Since radio formula, now streaming, and the worse... 'playlists' they have been corrupting new generations to get away of the correct way of listening to those masterpiece full albums. This is just the musical industry trend to care about his bussiness. Another "bread and circuses" like soccer or baseball for the masses.

 

[barfle]

I have conversations at work with colleagues in their 20s and 30s along the lines of them asking what I did the previous evening. When I reply I listended to a couple of albums, first of all they find it a bit strange that I listened to complete albums rather than picking tracks. Then they ask what I was doing at the time. "Listening to the albums".

I recall an article way back when that said something like “when you’re listening to music, you’re not sitting in one spot, you’re walking around, talking to friends, etc.”

Clearly, the author had never been to a concert in a theater, and had NEVER actually LISTENED to music.

 

[Owen Smith]

I recall an article way back when that said something like “when you’re listening to music, you’re not sitting in one spot, you’re walking around, talking to friends, etc.”

Clearly, the author had never been to a concert in a theater, and had NEVER actually LISTENED to music.

Oxford Dickie told me one of his first memories of the joy of music was sitting in a darkened room with his uncle listening to Beethoven on a mono record player. It was the first time he'd been told or shown to just sit down and listen. He said it was a foundational experience of his life and lead on to his love of music and audio reproduction.

 

[MidiMagic]

This is why I make comments about the planned obsolescence crap I see!
If that makes me resident curmudgeon... well, someone has to do it!

In hindsight, the computer as music server has worked out really well for me! New formats are just a new piece of software. I tend to keep archives in non proprietary formats when possible like flac. So most of the collection is in flac. A handful of alac (Apple version of flac). Everything is constantly backed up. This is why I'll probably rip Atmos 7.1.4 mixes to wavpack.
Software spoofing is over the top insane right now!

Mac was the only audio computer choice early on. And Jobs-era Apple was VERY different from post Jobs Apple! I have my current 2011 Macbook Pro triple booting at present: Snow Leopard (10.6.8), High Sierra (10.13.6), & Monterey (12.2.1). All my software back to 2005 or so is still right under my fingers! (A newer graphics card in my Mac Pro tower means no booting Snow Leopard on that machine anymore though.) I have 2nd identical backup machines for both.

The only thing I feel like I don't have access to that seems like something worthwhile is HomerJAU's MMH app!

A lot of folks around here seem to be in a very different world with Windows boxes and stand alone players and receivers like it's the 1970s!

What are you going to do when that 2011 computer fails. You won't be able to buy the same thing.

 

[MidiMagic]

Who won't let you? You could stick with mono, 2ch, upsampling, or whatever floats your boat.
I know your not happy the PLII has disappeared, but it's been replaced by 3 or 5 other upsampling codec. Many complain about the demise of Logic 7 or whatever. Can't you fine one of the new ones your happy with? I do. I'm sure the designing engineers thought the newer ones were an improvement, those you get for free in most cases.

I do not want all of my music on files. I want physical media that don't quit working when the program to play it is deprecated.

I want to play the music or film on the system it was designed for, not on some crummy upmixer that does not play it the way it was originally intended to be played. The images of the sounds must be in the same places, not where some brain decided to put them.

And I have written and recorded some music on my own. I was really mad when I put it on MP3 to send it to someone and the pan positions I set were changed by MP3. I want the pan positions to be where I put them. That means QS or PLII, not something that changes where things are panned.

In HiFi is it really "planned obsolescence"?
I was thrilled when 2ch was expanded into Quad. Later 5&7.1 may not have been a game changer for music but it sure can be for video. Then when Atmos came out and I was able to upgrade my system to take advantage of it, I was once again thrilled by much of the new music mastering being done to both old and new recordings.
Sure, the manufacturers are always looking to bring something new to market in hopes of selling more gear, media, etc. But if the general public doesn't accept and buy into it, it dies. Remember what happened to Quad, DVD-A and others?
But in general, I'm over the moon happy with the advancement in audio media and SQ over the last 50-60 years. I sure as hell don't want to go back to a 2ch vinyl only world.

I never left quad. I still have the equipment for all of the matrix systems. But they won't sell replacement equipment. Instead, they sell new systems that are not compatible with the old systems. That is not an "upgrade", it is a deprecation of all old recordings that use the old system.

It's like the businessman who was required by the IRS to bring in all of his files for the last 7 years. He brings in all of the disks he has. Nobody had anything that could even read the disks over 4 years old. Computer companies deprecated the old media.

 

[MidiMagic]

"I'm sure the designing engineers thought the newer ones were an improvement, those you get for free in most cases." Nothing is free..and it is never FIRST about an improvement in their eyes..it's the $$. Especially now. Build Back Better!👿 The costs are in the price. Also, what is truly disappearing is quality physical media. I miss record and electronic/music stores. We used to drive to a city just for those, and it was quite a drive too, and at least once a month for so many years. Now, not at all. Most are long gone. We do not watch tv much at all, and do not own a lot of movies. We do own a LOT of music physical media though..thank God. And with the exception of a few smaller outfits, it's going away as well. The streaming crap is the end. We do not participate. Even if we could. In this house..'it died'. Not city people at all so those supposed 'conveniences' in the 'sticks' are either way too expensive, non existent or they are of poor quality. In most cases way overpriced and poor quality.. Referring to the 'internet'.... and 'Atmos' is another topic. CHOICES in versions of surround are purposely being limited. Dolby has figured it out. It's internet friendly no matter the limited choices and the quality. A brilliant move. As figured. $$$ and it BLOWS. I think older folks (like us) get it, the younger ones though, not so much. Never thought I would see music 'rentals' instead of owning physical copies in my life...and many people LIKE this! Glad we have what we own......as well the 'old' gear that plays it.

What happens when the old gear fails and nothing is available to replace it?

Streaming might be good except when they delete your favorite music.

Same thing about rentals. What do you do when they stop renting your favorite?

 

[jimfisheye]

What are you going to do when that 2011 computer fails. You won't be able to buy the same thing.

That's what the backup machine is for.
Today I'd grab the backup. I'm honestly not sure what I might go for for a new laptop. There isn't a product like the Macbook Pro anymore. (Sure as heck not the new versions with their soldered in hard drives!) It's either cheapness 'netbooks' or gamer monsters for $6000.

I want to build a new DIY tower just because I miss tinkering but I can't justify it when the current one is still overpowered for the audio I do. Again, there isn't a new choice available from post-Jobs Apple that interests me. And I have a backup Mac Pro too. I did enough refurbs and repairs for a side hustle to scrounge up the backups for a song. Plenty of spare parts around too. Redundancy is my insurance plan in general.

I'm getting close to jumping to Linux. I already know that that and DIY build is the way forward. I still feel like I just nailed these purchases in hindsight. Caught the last of the Apples when CPU speeds plateaued. It's too bad because their M chips look to have some genuine performance but the spoofing and planned obsolescence just kills it. Pretty sure some newer i9 DIY build would run circles around those too. But now it's more amusing to see how long these last me! They still run the latest MacOS if I want them to. Graphics on the laptop would be considered a joke today but it's still a bangin' audio machine!

So I miss drooling over the new Mac brochure every 6 months with a new 4x faster machine every time around. I still miss album covers! (Vinyl era)
I miss album stores and used album stores too, now that someone mentioned it. But the computer always just works and I have all this 24 bit surround sound music that sounds just perfect. And now we have these ambitious 12 channel mixes from some dedicated crazy people and the format looks to be permanent. The last 15 years of serious high tech is all over the used markers for pennies on the dollar. These are good times!

What were we talking about again?
Speakers! That's right.

Yeah, they don't make AR9's anymore either but I found more 2nd hand and was able to just expand from 6 to 12 channels without starting over.

 

[DrKlahn]

No one can tell the future, but considering the optical disc has been with us for about 40 years I see there being at least a niche market for someone to keep making a universal player long after I'm gone.

I do rip some media, but primarily listen to disc. I deal with technology enough and find the simplicity of putting in a disc and pressing play appealing. That and I don't want the limited time I get to be able to enjoy the room spent patching or troubleshooting things. Nothing wrong with either approach.