A Couple of Atmos Questions

[ogrequad]

As I consider upgrading my system to be Atmos-ready, I have a couple of questions specific to my room set up. I do have a dedicated room for music listening, but it is pretty small - roughly 12X15 - and it has a number of windows, doors, and other obstructions that limit the space for speakers. I am currently set up for 5.1 and even that took some creative placement of my rear speakers.

If/when I make the move to upgrade, I really don't think I have the capability to get height speakers installed in the way that they should be based on what I have read about Atmos. There is a possibility that I could put an extra set of speakers a few feet above my current rear speakers, but they would be essentially along the same vertical axis, just with one set of speakers higher than the others. Would that be sufficient for getting at least some of the effect of the height channels?

Another option would be a totally wild experiment - I actually have more space in the front of the room for two additional speakers. They would be to the left and right of my front speakers, a few feet behind them. Anyone have any thoughts/predications on what would it would sound like in that configuration? Would it even be worth trying out?

Finally, has anyone played around with the Atmos Height Virtualization option included with some receivers? The virtualization claims to recreate the height effect without needing extra speakers, but I suspect it's not quite that effective in reality. Would this be a decent compromise if I really can't find a way to effectively set up those additional speakers?

Any advice is welcome - thanks in advance!

 

[ProgRules]

My Pioneer vsx-lx505 can assign height speakers as either top (on ceiling) or highs (high on walls). That would have a little different processing and get closer to actual on-walls. How close I don't know, but if you're going to do it, I'd recommend something with that option.

That being said, I'd think that option would have the best chance of being satisfying if you used both front and back walls- then you'd have a chance of some phantom imaging between speakers- center and sideways. And I think you'd want to aim those speakers at the MLP- either with adjustable brackets or angled speakers.

But this is all hypothetical; I have no experience with what you're thinking. Except for my previous (non-Atmos) AVR having a DSX height speaker option- meant to be mounted above and between FL and FR. I put some speakers on high stands and there did seem to be an added sense of height in the front, but it was subtle. This was a type of matrixed processing I believe. I assume an Atmos AVR would do a better job.

No experience with virtualization either, but I doubt that would be very satisfying. But I imagine most/all Atmos AVRs have this, so you could always try it before getting height speakers.

 

[jimfisheye]

The example of a 4.0 quad mix with a sound that pans around the room in a circle.
You need to set up speakers in close to the expected proper positions to hear that. If you moved the rear speakers somewhere else, that circular pan would start to not sound like a circular pan anymore.

No different with a 7.1.4 mix. You'll need speakers in close to the expected spots. The secondary ability of Atmos to downmix in your receiver still expects the smaller speaker array to have speakers in their expected spots. Or the mixes will sound skewed/altered.

Choose your adventure with that!
Physically positioning speakers in the expected spots and at least cursory room treatment (ie. some dampening) are still the most bang for the buck. However you need to accomplish that.

I've got 7.1.4 crammed into a 13'x14' with 9' ceiling room. It can be done!

 

[inspclouseau]

My Pioneer vsx-lx505 can assign height speakers as either top (on ceiling) or highs (high on walls). That would have a little different processing and get closer to actual on-walls. How close I don't know, but if you're going to do it, I'd recommend something with that option.

That being said, I'd think that option would have the best chance of being satisfying if you used both front and back walls- then you'd have a chance of some phantom imaging between speakers- center and sideways. And I think you'd want to aim those speakers at the MLP- either with adjustable brackets or angled speakers.

But this is all hypothetical; I have no experience with what you're thinking. Except for my previous (non-Atmos) AVR having a DSX height speaker option- meant to be mounted above and between FL and FR. I put some speakers on high stands and there did seem to be an added sense of height in the front, but it was subtle. This was a type of matrixed processing I believe. I assume an Atmos AVR would do a better job.

No experience with virtualization either, but I doubt that would be very satisfying. But I imagine most/all Atmos AVRs have this, so you could always try it before getting height speakers.

Much of the reason we will never even try Atmos~ After setting up a fairly large front room with huge windows and tall cathedral ceilings. We finally got the bass to work very well in here at 5.3. The hardest to get right I think. The system really does sound excellent in here. It took ~several~ years.... IF I were ever to change the system out to Atmos, I'd have to tear things down, move and add speakers, purchase new gear including speakers that would never really match at all to 'close' anymore, and attempt placing the height speakers in the strangest positions. And our front room would appear something circus -like. Also, if after having removed and re-positioning all speakers, as well as adding even more. And a new Atmos amp etc and then IF the sound never does sound as nice as our old 5.3 rig....i'd **** ....... We're all good as is. NOT movie watchers/mostly music anyway. Our Pink Floyd collection though might be really cool with people floating around over head.. but then what? We just hope real 5.1 (not 'fold' down) stays viable for the near future....we're not pups anymore.... and that $$$$ thing....

Just listened to our newest live release again~ SDE ~Tears For Fears, A Nervous Planet. A live release done THIS well....obviously Steve Wilson.

 

[alansanchez86]

Can you show us some pics of your space so that we can provide suggestions?

 

[marpow]

but it is pretty small - roughly 12X15

My room is 12' X 14' and I have 5 on the floor, 3 subs and 4 heights and this mother moves.
With my space it is mostly rectangle the TV wall is 12'. I sit 5/8 back of the front height speakers.
I have a window, I like the window, but has sheer curtain all the time and remote shades for night.
Notice all the bass traps, absorbers, and diffusers, rug on the floor. Treating your walls are paramount to keep all those sounds from bouncing all over the place and messing up your hearing.
Within my space notice also I tried to keep all matched and linear.
Treat your room as your own, it will have it's own flavor and performance that will be unique to you, It will be great, trust me.

 

[ProgRules]

Much of the reason we will never even try Atmos~ After setting up a fairly large front room with huge windows and tall cathedral ceilings. We finally got the bass to work very well in here at 5.3. The hardest to get right I think. The system really does sound excellent in here. It took ~several~ years.... IF I were ever to change the system out to Atmos, I'd have to tear things down, move and add speakers, purchase new gear including speakers that would never really match at all to 'close' anymore, and attempt placing the height speakers in the strangest positions. And our front room would appear something circus -like. Also, if after having removed and re-positioning all speakers, as well as adding even more. And a new Atmos amp etc and then IF the sound never does sound as nice as our old 5.3 rig....i'd **** ....... We're all good as is. NOT movie watchers/mostly music anyway. Our Pink Floyd collection though might be really cool with people floating around over head.. but then what? We just hope real 5.1 (not 'fold' down) stays viable for the near future....we're not pups anymore.... and that $$$$ thing....

Just listened to our newest live release again~ SDE ~Tears For Fears, A Nervous Planet. A live release done THIS well....obviously Steve Wilson.

I enjoy my Atmos system- despite being in a far-from-ideal room. But the difference between Atmos (at least as I experience it) and 5.1 is not night and day. To use a video analogy: the jump from stereo to 5.1 is like the jump from SD video (480i) to HD (1080p)- huge!; the jump from 5.1 to Atmos is like the jump from HD to 4K- significant, but not a big difference.

That being said- a great Atmos mix is sublime. But then so is a great 5.1/4.0 mix. It's just another level of sublime with Atmos.

But given the expense/effort of Atmos- especially in a non-dedicated listening room- it makes perfect sense to be satisfied with 5.1 (or 4.0 or 5.x). If you love your sound the way it is, certainly don't let FOMO hinder your enjoyment in the least. Though my obsessive nature made me take the step...

But I still dream of a dedicated space, treated, sound-proofed and designed for near perfection. Don't know if I'll ever get there though. But I do enjoy my setup immensely. My biggest concern is not annoying the neighbors too much...

 

[Thonolan]

I enjoy my Atmos system- despite being in a far-from-ideal room. But the difference between Atmos (at least as I experience it) and 5.1 is not night and day. To use a video analogy: the jump from stereo to 5.1 is like the jump from SD video (480i) to HD (1080p)- huge!; the jump from 5.1 to Atmos is like the jump from HD to 4K- significant, but not a big difference.

That being said- a great Atmos mix is sublime. But then so is a great 5.1/4.0 mix. It's just another level of sublime with Atmos.

Great analogy! I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[jimfisheye]

Agreed with this:
Stereo to 4.0 or 5.1 was night to day.
5.1 to 7.1.4 was just another day.
It was a really great day! But just another day.

If you are into hearing surround mixes as they were created and delivered... well we have a handful of 12 channel mixes now. No 2 ways about it... set up speakers if you want to hear them. Do the Atmos software dance to wrestle the decoder from Dolby's greedy hands. Or buy a piece of hardware like a new AVR with the decoder hidden inside. Careful with that. Having to repurchase hardware with amps, DACs, audio interface, etc all built in combo style leads to careful vetting of products or getting stuck buying expensive bits repeatedly. Software spoofing is in vogue right now and it's insidious. This is likely the part that set @inspclouseau off above. Frustrating greedy behavior for sure.

There are probably at least a handful of mixes of something that interests you that will wow you and that can't be delivered that way in 5.1. Everything does kind of go from zero to 100 with needing accurate setup just like quad or ever stereo. Speakers in the right spots, levels calibrated, and those kind of basics. (Or at least say, zero to 90!)

If you are a 'fidelity before more channels' person, keep that mindset. Don't downgrade just to afford more channels.

 

[ogrequad]

Can you show us some pics of your space so that we can provide suggestions?

Yes, I’m happy to do that at some point, but at the moment, it is a bit of a mess as we are reorganizing a few rooms and I’ve got stuff everywhere!

 

[ogrequad]

My room is 12' X 14' and I have 5 on the floor, 3 subs and 4 heights and this mother moves.
With my space it is mostly rectangle the TV wall is 12'. I sit 5/8 back of the front height speakers.
I have a window, I like the window, but has sheer curtain all the time and remote shades for night.
Notice all the bass traps, absorbers, and diffusers, rug on the floor. Treating your walls are paramount to keep all those sounds from bouncing all over the place and messing up your hearing.
Within my space notice also I tried to keep all matched and linear.
Treat your room as your own, it will have it's own flavor and performance that will be unique to you, It will be great, trust me.
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How about coming over to my place and setting up my room for me? That space
looks great!

 

[HomerJAU]

How about coming over to my place and setting up my room for me?

And miss out on the DIY fun?

I would recommend adding height speakers in/on your ceiling directly above the listening position for a 5.1.2 system.

There are great in-ceiling speakers that will give you Atmos immersion. It’s not too difficult to do yourself and relatively inexpensive compared to standalone speakers. (As usual I’d definitely prefer 5.1.4 if you have the budget but 5.1.2 with heights overhead is next best).

 

[mandrix]

I'm running 5.1.4 in an 8.5 x 12.5 ft room. Speaker placement is not ideal: there are three doors. I was running 7.1.4 but shifted everything 90* and took the back surrounds out. Actually I only had to move the Center and the Sub.
The four height speakers are cabinet type mounted high on the walls on swivel mounts that allow precise aiming toward the MLP.
Probably the most time consuming was moving a pair of the top speakers several times until I got the sound like I wanted.
Using good calibration software is what makes it work. I use Dirac Live but there are others.

IOW everything does not have to be perfect to make it work, regardless of what others say.

 

[madscot]

This is my height speakers, i’m unable to fit ceiling speakers, if you can place them as high as possible and tilt them toward the mlp they are great and I feel i’m getting an atmos experience

 

[barfle]

I’m in the middle of an atmos conversion, and like all,of us who didn’t build the room from scratch, I also have a few challenges. Mine is ceiling height - it’s less than 7 feet, and with a riser in back, it’s even lower.

I installed ceiling speakers when I was building out the room initially. They aren’t anything special, but they are flush with the ceiling and as close to atmos specs for placement as the joists would permit.

If drywall cutting is scary, as it once was for me, you can try the bounce speakers, but from what I’ve read, that’s underwhelming.

Of course, real, useful advice can only happen if we have a decent sense of the room and its issues. Again, pictures or diagrams can only help those with atmos experience understand your particular situation.

 

[marpow]

I did a DIY project well documented HERE ON QQ with commentary and many pictures.
I am a contractor and very handy with all mechanical things and I understand others are not and this can be a very daunting task.
Even if you are handy with running wires and connections one may feel uncomfortable with opening walls and ceilings.
My suggestion is add into your cost taping, texture of sheet rock as that is likely a hurdle that mentally others may find overwhelming.
If your ceiling joists run front to back it is much easier as it is easy with fish tape to pull your wire with minimal holes. If they run opposite then unless you go in from roof down, you have to either cut a small hole through each joist or go over the top.

What I did: used matching brand ceiling (flush mount) speakers, same brand as my floors and a 4 channel amp just for the 4 heights. I had custom made boxes from the cabinet shop to enclose the speakers above the ceiling so I cut the sound emitting into the ceiling space. I did this all about the very beginning of the Atmos scene emerging.

What I would do differently: I am not convinced it would really matter to a great degree as all that I did was done very well..
But, if I was to do again I think I would prefer a ceiling (joist mounted) hanging box speakers hanging on hangers. So you get the built speaker in a box like the picture from madscot above me.

Check out my DIY link top of page, it is pretty cool, start to finish. It was my daughters bedroom. She moved out. I hinted to my wife, hey let me take that room and I will pull my rig out of the living room. She said NO, I want to turn that into a guest room, I said OK. Well three years went by and I continued to ask her and after 3 years she finally said OK. She never sits and listens to music but we do watch TV together every night and she enjoys it immensely. She still does not care about the sound, a center speaker is good enough for her. She loves the reclining chairs. She hates the two remotes out of like 8 I think, I have a programmed universal remote and the Apple 4K remote, sometimes they can be a bit wonky, no problem for me but sends her into a tail spin.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

What I would do differently: I am not convinced it would really matter to a great degree as all that I did was done very well..
But, if I was to do again I think I would prefer a ceiling (joist mounted) hanging box speakers hanging on hangers. So you get the built speaker in a box like the picture from madscot above me.

I was going to suggest this as well. Using surface mount heights might be the easiest and cheapest route. SVS prime elevation speakers are on sale right now.

https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation