DIGITAL At Least a Dozen 2002/2003 Elliot Scheiner 5.1 Mixes Have a LFE Issue (info/list/fixes inside)

[paligap]

I finally finished going through my entire library, I don't have extensive notes on every track/release as there were often exceptions and variations on individual tracks and I just wanted to slog through it all. Plus if you are obsessive enough to fix this stuff, I imagine you will want to verify things yourself.

One consistent set of releases of note. All the Steven Wilson XTC and Yes releases have a 10ms LFE delay except for XTC Psurroundabout Ride.

You didn't happen to check any of his Jethro Tull releases, did you? It would be interesting if his lossy mixes don't have an LFE delay, but his lossless ones do.

 

[Cheezmo]

You didn't happen to check any of his Jethro Tull releases, did you? It would be interesting if his lossy mixes don't have an LFE but his lossless ones do.

All the Jethro Tull releases were fine, no LFE delay, except the Aqualung Blu-ray which I actually couldn't figure out. Some releases have the the low pass filter set low enough it is hard to correlate with any of the other channels.

 

[fredblue]

All the Jethro Tull releases were fine, no LFE delay, except the Aqualung Blu-ray which I actually couldn't figure out. Some releases have the the low pass filter set low enough it is hard to correlate with any of the other channels.

arr, it be Mewtilated, me hearty!
just like the original Thick As A Brick 5.1!

 

[kap'n krunch]

MAYBE...just maybe ...the delay was intentional (??) taking into account that 1 ms is roughly 1 foot distance and that subwoofers are usually farther away than the rest of speakers, it sounds approximately right... 5ms equals 5 foot distance...

Just saying...

 

[4-earredwonder]

MAYBE...just maybe ...the delay was intentional (??) taking into account that 1 ms is roughly 1 foot distance and that subwoofers are usually farther away than the rest of speakers, it sounds approximately right... 5ms equals 5 foot distance...

Just saying...

Quite possibly, Kap, but how about listeners who have full range speakers and NO subs?

 

[kap'n krunch]

Quite possibly, Kap, but how about listeners who have full range speakers and NO subs?

well, I guess WE can all f*** ourselves!!!!

 

[4-earredwonder]

well, I guess WE can all f*** ourselves!!!!

Or let it slide and just enjoy all those glorious Elliot Scheiner 5.1 remixes, which until this thread was started, were ALL QQ darlings!❤

 

[Cheezmo]

MAYBE...just maybe ...the delay was intentional (??) taking into account that 1 ms is roughly 1 foot distance and that subwoofers are usually farther away than the rest of speakers, it sounds approximately right... 5ms equals 5 foot distance...

Just saying...

Very much doubt they would mix for "how some people that don't calibrate their speaker settings might place their speakers". My sub is the same distance as my speakers and any system with a mic and speaker setup tones is going to adjust delays for the sub distance anyway.

Also, adding delay to the LFE would compensate for the subwoofer being closer than the rest of the speakers, not further.

 

[Greg Z]

I figured I would test my ears and see if I notice any difference. I ripped my Elliot Schneider
Night at the Opera DVD-A and corrected the 6ms lag in the LFE channel. I created a Blu-ray
which allowed me to use the on screen lyrics from the DVD-V layer with the lossless surround
audio. I'll have time Friday to check out the results. I have a feeling my old ears won't hear any
difference but you never know.

 

[Cheezmo]

I figured I would test my ears and see if I notice any difference. I ripped my Elliot Schneider
Night at the Opera DVD-A and corrected the 6ms lag in the LFE channel. I created a Blu-ray
which allowed me to use the on screen lyrics from the DVD-V layer with the lossless surround
audio. I'll have time Friday to check out the results. I have a feeling my old ears won't hear any
difference but you never know.

My conclusion after fixing a lot of these is that you'll probably find the bass is more pronounced, maybe too much so. I've concluded that when they set the levels, this error was in place so using their ears they adjusted the LFE for the amount of bass they wanted. Fixing the offset increases the bass, but that isn't what they were listening to when they mastered it, so, maybe too much.

 

[ssully]

It's good to try, but I wouldn't take such results conclusively without a blind comparison setup, and/or a set of bass output level measurements to match.

 

[artwwweb]

I've been meaning to look at this for ages, and today finally got around to trying to understand the problem and trying to fix it. Thank you to Steely and Homer J and Cheezmo and all the others who have added to this. I have applied the changes to Sea Changes. I've not listened yet and I may not even notice, but the fixes seem to make sense so I figure it is worth doing (MMH making it pretty simple, after all).

So... is there an updated list of discs to fix? I'm currently looking at the list on page one of this thread.

 

[Cheezmo]

I've been meaning to look at this for ages, and today finally got around to trying to understand the problem and trying to fix it. Thank you to Steely and Homer J and Cheezmo and all the others who have added to this. I have applied the changes to Sea Changes. I've not listened yet and I may not even notice, but the fixes seem to make sense so I figure it is worth doing (MMH making it pretty simple, after all).

So... is there an updated list of discs to fix? I'm currently looking at the list on page one of this thread.

I went through my entire library, checking everything and about 70% or more needed fixing (rough estimate). Definitely the majority so not even worth trying to make a list. It's really sad. Just look at the notes someone made on fixing Aqualung. I haven't even made it through doing that one yet.

 

[artwwweb]

I went through my entire library, checking everything and about 70% or more needed fixing (rough estimate). Definitely the majority so not even worth trying to make a list. It's really sad. Just look at the notes someone made on fixing Aqualung. I haven't even made it through doing that one yet.

Thanks. I had a feeling that might be the case, but hoping it wasn't. I suppose if it made that big a difference more people would be looking for a solution.

 

[Cheezmo]

Thanks. I had a feeling that might be the case, but hoping it wasn't. I suppose if it made that big a difference more people would be looking for a solution.

I found it made a pretty significant difference, but the effort to fix it is not trivial. It took me months. Was it worth it? Not sure.

 

[mandrix]

I have so mch surround music to listen to, including Mr. Scheiner's work, and a busy retired (sic) life, the last thing I want to do is rip all my music and modify it.

If I listened to 3 discs a day, it would take me a year.

Jeez Louise...I mean the conversation is mostly about Scheiner's work, but where does it stop? I have over 1000 discs. Uh-uh.

Not a criticism, far from it; just a fact. I want to listen to my music, not tinker with it unless there's an obvious audible defect to me I can't live with.

 

[4-earredwonder]

And truth be told, if you have FULL range speakers [NO sub] and eliminate the LFE channel on your player would anyone really notice? Originally, the center and LFE channels were indigenous of motion pictures ..... not music!

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

And truth be told, if you have FULL range speakers [NO sub] and eliminate the LFE channel on your player would anyone really notice?

Indeed... This is how my system is set up with my OPPO, using its analogue outputs

 

[artwwweb]

I found it made a pretty significant difference, but the effort to fix it is not trivial. It took me months. Was it worth it? Not sure.

Using the option HomerJAU added to MMH, it actually is a very quick job if it's just fixing a delay. The first time might take 15 mins as you learn what to do, but after that it literally might only take 2 minutes. (The processing might take longer, but that is unattended.) I agree, though, that when we are talking about roughly half of all releases it seems ridiculous. But if there is a disc that you find seems to be not as good as it should do, it might be worth investigating doing this.

 

[svtmike]

I "fixed" the mix of Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots by shifting the LFE channels by 5ms (my measurement of the phase difference matched the table). Then I listened to the "fixed" mix on my car system (FLAC 5.1 files in a 2017 Audi A4 with B&O system) and it sounded awful. The low frequency content was much lower instead of higher, and there was a lot of weird-sounding phasiness overall to the songs.

The original mix still sounds stellar.

I suspect there may be more to the story of the delayed LFE channels and how different audio systems handle LFE content, and a reason for the phase delays.