Atmos in 5.1.2: where does the top rear audio go?

[MathieuW]

Hi all,

I have a 4.0.2 setup. Four speakers on the ground in a square and 2 speakers above the two front speakers identified as top fronts in my AVR (Marantz cinema 30). When I run the speaker check from Dark Side of the Moon 50th anniversary edition, the top rear audio is played in the top fronts. This confuses me; my assumption was that audio from the top rears would go to the surrounds. Similar as the left/right side audio is played via the rear speakers in my setup.

Are there forum members with a x.x.2 setup that can confirm that all 4 top audio signals are played by the 2 speakers? Or is there a setting I missed.

It is great that I get as much use of those tops as possible, but I wonder if it doesn’t mess up the intended placement. For instance, backing vocals from the rear tops would be great, but in my situation they would play from the front tops and that might not combine well with any backing vocals in the surround rears.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Out of interest... If your Marantz Cinema 30 is able to support 7.4.6 or 9.4.4, why are you using it for just 4.0.2?

 

[riskylogic]

My understanding is that Atmos mixes have spatial positions rather than channels per se. The receiver assigns where tracks get played based on mix positions and how the receiver is calibrated.

 

[MathieuW]

Out of interest... If your Marantz Cinema 30 is able to support 7.4.6 or 9.4.4, why are you using it for just 4.0.2?

My Marantz is a much bigger supporter of multiple speakers than my wife. But my wife is better with our kids than the Marantz. Choices had to be made

 

[MathieuW]

My understanding is that Atmos mixes have spatial positions rather than channels per se. The receiver assigns where tracks get played based on mix positions and how the receiver is calibrated.

I think mixes can have channels and objects, but I have a limited grasp of what that actually is in the data stream. My idea was that rear tops (channel) or high behind objects remain behind the listener via the AVR decoding the signal to the speakers present. If the tops only have reverb (as some mixes only have that), combining all 4 tops at the front could spoil the effect. Maybe even cancel out?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Objects or spatial positionings, semantics. it eventually comes down to a unique signal being amplified by a single amp and produced by a single speaker. A channel.

 

[steelydave]

My amp allows me to specify the physical location of my two height speakers, either front wall, front ceiling, middle ceiling or rear ceiling. Choosing one of these options controls what audio is actually sent to the speakers.

This is slightly oversimplified but this is what should/will happen with these options:

front wall/front ceiling: content meant for the front heights will go there, content meant for rear heights will go to your surround speakers on the floor
middle ceiling: content meant for front heights and rear heights will all be routed to the height speakers
rear ceiling: content meant for the front heights will go to your main floor left and right speakers, content meant for the rear heights will go there

The Atmos recommendation for .2 heights is that they should be basically "middle ceiling" somewhere between directly above the listener to 15 degrees in front of the listener. In this configuration, everything that would normally be sent to all four height speakers will be routed to the two speakers, but obviously what you lose is any front/rear separation for height information, ie if you had a sound moving from front left height to rear left height in a full .4 setup, in a .2 setup all the left height content whether or not it's front or rear would come from the one left height speaker.

The following is just personal opinion, so take it for what you will: After thinking about this for a long time, I decided to position my two height speakers as front ceiling height, rather than the Atmos recommended middle ceiling. Why? Because my feeling is that while the middle ceiling position is ideal for Atmos movies where the height aspect is about creating ambiance and atmosphere and "overhead effects" and so on, with listening to music in surround, my main priority is front/rear separation. For example, if there were backing vocals in the rear height speakers and I have a 5.1.2 setup, I'd rather hear them in the rear (floor) surround speakers than two middle ceiling speakers.

Obviously this is a compromise because in placing your two height speakers at the front you'll never hear anything from the rear height position, but 5.1.2 is a compromise in itself, and if I had to do the installation over again, I'd still make the same decision. There's no "right" answer really, so you should do what makes your listening experience the most enjoyable for you.

 

[marpow]

These two pictures are about 5 years old and things look a little different at the front, equipment wise, but we are not talking about that.

My seat is about middle of room, if you plumbed straight down my front heights would be about 3.5' in front of my chair, if you plumbed straight down my rears would be about 3' behind my chair.
The speakers in ceiling have movable/adjustable center tweeters and they are angled manually towards my chair.

My experience: my height speakers are farther distance from my head than the floor speakers. I have the height speakers +6db as I want to hear the heights without exception.
Atmos has so many variations as to how it ends up to the listeners ears, some are great and sum are duds and everything in the middle. If you are laying out a room, you basically want to lay out like mine. My room is 12' front wall X 14' long and 8' tall ceilings.
This configuration is close to near field listening, but plenty big enough to not be nearfield.
Metered amps are very good, especially when you are beginning Atmos, it mentally verifies what you think you hear.
I have 5.1 in my car, now that is nearfield listening and sounds really cool.
If I had a real big room, oh my, that would cost some bucks.
Final note; many times the signal is Dolby Atmos but there is nothing in the heights, so that can mess with your mind also.

 

[MathieuW]

My amp allows me to specify the physical location of my two height speakers, either front wall, front ceiling, middle ceiling or rear ceiling. Choosing one of these options controls what audio is actually sent to the speakers.

This is slightly oversimplified but this is what should/will happen with these options:

front wall/front ceiling: content meant for the front heights will go there, content meant for rear heights will go to your surround speakers on the floor
middle ceiling: content meant for front heights and rear heights will all be routed to the height speakers
rear ceiling: content meant for the front heights will go to your main floor left and right speakers, content meant for the rear heights will go there

The Atmos recommendation for .2 heights is that they should be basically "middle ceiling" somewhere between directly above the listener to 15 degrees in front of the listener. In this configuration, everything that would normally be sent to all four height speakers will be routed to the two speakers, but obviously what you lose is any front/rear separation for height information, ie if you had a sound moving from front left height to rear left height in a full .4 setup, in a .2 setup all the left height content whether or not it's front or rear would come from the one left height speaker.

The following is just personal opinion, so take it for what you will: After thinking about this for a long time, I decided to position my two height speakers as front ceiling height, rather than the Atmos recommended middle ceiling. Why? Because my feeling is that while the middle ceiling position is ideal for Atmos movies where the height aspect is about creating ambiance and atmosphere and "overhead effects" and so on, with listening to music in surround, my main priority is front/rear separation. For example, if there were backing vocals in the rear height speakers and I have a 5.1.2 setup, I'd rather hear them in the rear (floor) surround speakers than two middle ceiling speakers.

Obviously this is a compromise because in placing your two height speakers at the front you'll never hear anything from the rear height position, but 5.1.2 is a compromise in itself, and if I had to do the installation over again, I'd still make the same decision. There's no "right" answer really, so you should do what makes your listening experience the most enjoyable for you.

Thank you for the comprehensive explanation. I verified in the setup of the Marantz, and I configured the height speakers as follows:

Height speakers: 2
Layout: front height

Your simplification, much appreciated, is similar to my reasoning. Rear height should go to the surround speakers. Based on the channel test track on the Pink Floyd disc (and I also used 1 different one which was available on Apple Music), it does not go to the surround but to the front heights. I changed the setup in the AVR to Top front. This has no consequence for the test track, the rear height signal goes to Top front.

If you would run this or a comparable Atmos track, the rear height audio signal does go to the surround speakers?

BTW, my brother had a 7.2.2 setup and installed the two speakers in the middle of the ceiling as recommended indeed. For music he did not like the effect at all, for movies it was fine. A few months later he installed 2 additional speakers behind and moved the 2 middle speakers to the front. As music is much more important to me than movies, I installed front heights as well.

 

[MathieuW]

These two pictures are about 5 years old and things look a little different at the front, equipment wise, but we are not talking about that.

My seat is about middle of room, if you plumbed straight down my front heights would be about 3.5' in front of my chair, if you plumbed straight down my rears would be about 3' behind my chair.
The speakers in ceiling have movable/adjustable center tweeters and they are angled manually towards my chair.

My experience: my height speakers are farther distance from my head than the floor speakers. I have the height speakers +6db as I want to hear the heights without exception.
Atmos has so many variations as to how it ends up to the listeners ears, some are great and sum are duds and everything in the middle. If you are laying out a room, you basically want to lay out like mine. My room is 12' front wall X 14' long and 8' tall ceilings.
This configuration is close to near field listening, but plenty big enough to not be nearfield.
Metered amps are very good, especially when you are beginning Atmos, it mentally verifies what you think you hear.
I have 5.1 in my car, now that is nearfield listening and sounds really cool.
If I had a real big room, oh my, that would cost some bucks.
Final note; many times the signal is Dolby Atmos but there is nothing in the heights, so that can mess with your mind also.

View attachment 114817
View attachment 114818

This looks great and probably sounds even better! If only I planned ahead a bit more when our house was built 2 years ago, I would have prepared the ceiling for speakers. As it is a mixture of concrete and steel, that is not feasible. In theory it is possible of course.