Beaver and Krause Gandharva Japanese QS LP Report

[fredblue]

There is no point in using an EV-4 decoder. That decoder was little more than an active version of the Dyna Quadaptor. The decode coefficients didn't even match the encode ones. It was designed to give a good surround effect with stereo records. It was designed purely subjectively, doing a good job for it's time.

QS Vario-matrix and Involve will extract far greater separation than the original Stereo-4 decoder.

MidiMagic has even suggested moving your chair farther back in the room to hear the correct perspective. The fronts will decode a bit more toward the sides while the backs will be a bit closer together.

not being unnecessary/awkward, i'm fascinated and genuinely unclear how QS variomatrix and/or Involve could accurately extract more in their decoding process(es) than an EV-4 decoder with source material that's surely limited by the original EV-4 encoding?

seems like there's nothing extra there to gain, you can't get a whole pint of milk out of a half pint pot! unless i'm totally misunderstanding what's being suggested

 

[par4ken]

not being unnecessary/awkward, i'm fascinated and genuinely unclear how QS variomatrix and/or Involve could accurately extract more in their decoding process(es) than an EV-4 decoder with source material that's surely limited by the original EV-4 encoding?

seems like there's nothing extra there to gain, you can't get a whole pint of milk out of a half pint pot! unless i'm totally misunderstanding what's being suggested

The EV Stereo 4 decoder is a very basic unit. It uses no form of logic nor has it any form of vario-matrix action. What could be simpler, the decoder or the understanding of it?

So then the Stereo-4 decoder is a simple basic unit (similar to the Dyna Quadaptor speaker connection) while on the other hand the QS and Involve decoders are very advanced by comparison. The QS Vario-matrix and Involve will work to extract surround from any two channel source. Additionally QS (and RM) are very close to EV-4 in encoding coefficients. The difference in the decode will be only a very slight image shift.

 

[fredblue]

The EV Stereo 4 decoder is a very basic unit. It uses no form of logic nor has it any form of vario-matrix action. What could be simpler, the decoder or the understanding of it?

So then the Stereo-4 decoder is a simple basic unit (similar to the Dyna Quadaptor speaker connection) while on the other hand the QS and Involve decoders are very advanced by comparison. The QS Vario-matrix and Involve will work to extract surround from any two channel source. Additionally QS (and RM) are very close to EV-4 in encoding coefficients. The difference in the decode will be only a very slight image shift.

if the music is encoded in very basic EV-4 then how can variomatrix QS or Involve somehow magically extract what isn't there in the first place?

 

[par4ken]

if the music is encoded in very basic EV-4 then how can variomatrix QS or Involve somehow magically extract what isn't there in the first place?

I thought that my comments and explanation were very clear! Yes both the Tate and Vario-Matrix decoders are Involve are indeed "magical".
They can all extract near perfect Quad from regular stereo. That is done by pulling the stereo image apart or stretching it 270°. To get the sound to go all the way around 360° all you need is some out of phase information added to that stereo signal.

QS, RM and EV-4 even Dyna all do that! QS is very close to EV-4. The directional information encoded by the EV-4 encoder gets extracted and "enhanced" by the decoder. It is done almost perfectly. Encoding is a very basic process, the magic is in the decode (not the encode). The "proper" Stereo-4 decoder can not match any of the other much more advanced units.

QS encoding does allow for certain panned effects that cannot be done with the other more simple encodes but those limitations would have been addressed when the original mix was done, so there should be no big difference between the two.

 

[Aging quadie]

I like to play mono through multiple speakers. Is that wrong?

Unless you have a dedicated mono cartridge with separate .7mm and 1mm styli, yes!!!

 

[Mark Anderson]

Gandharva was reported in Quad Incorporated 1st edition as being EV encoded. All Good Men in the second edition.
Billboard reported in '71 that Gandharva would be Warner Bros. first quadrasonic tape and the LP would be stereo.
We never did see a tape release and I don't know where the thought of EV encoding crept in.
After reading the billboard article, it appears their was never any intent to release Gandharva in a matrix format upon initial release.
The mention of "We setup mikes in the hall in such a way as to have the musicians walk through the four channel space" in
the liner notes might lead some folks to think the LP's were matrixed encoded.
Since a noticeable difference between the Japan & Other versions was noticed, that would indicate one being encoded and the other
not encoded instead of a difference in the matrix system used (EV vs. QS)

JBL Superecord. Contemporary. Warner Bros. Records – PRO 496 was also listed as being EV encoded and has been determined that it is not.

That leaves to question of a couple remaining U.S. recordings on Warner Bros. as the only matrix recordings they did were Warner-Pioneer issued in Japan.

MARY TRAVERS -
Mary. Warner Brothers WS-1907 (EV)

BEAVER & KRAUSE -
All Good Men. Warner Brothers BS-2624 (EV) [US & Australia]

 

[steelydave]

The "actual quad?" status of the B&K albums may be up for debate, but I don't think it was (or is) wrong to presume they're quad - Gandharva mentions "stereo and quadraphonic remixing" being done at The Village Recorder, and All Good Men credits Robert Orban with 'Mixing and Quadraphonic Audio Supervision'.

Also with Gandharva, there were a number of pressings (1971, 1973, 1974) some with red covers, and some with blue, so it's possible that some variants are straight stereo and that some are matrix-encoded quad.

 

[Aging quadie]

May this prolonged, intriguing conversation about Gandharva help expedite a Quadio release in our lifetimes! (Preferably accompanied by an insightful essay by Mr. Krause!)

 

[Richard A]

You didn't mention mono! Do you listen to mono through a single speaker? I agree with people such as Phil Spector that mono produces the perfect mix. Nothing that you do with it can screw it up. I like to play mono through multiple speakers. Is that wrong?

This DVD-A disc The British are Coming although described as 5.1 is actually five channels of mono. The crazy thing is that it sounds great!

Sorry, (not sorry) to have veered off topic but the eleventh commandment is "Thou shalt not listen to music through less than four speakers."


Most stereo is mixed with most elements in phase. There are exceptions, I think of Jimi Hendrix and the note on the master tape that says "do not correct phase".

One album in particular comes to mind "I Had Too Much To Dream Last Night" by the Electric Prunes. The mono version sounds "proper" but the stereo is downright weird sounding. It drives the Composer crazy, you would think that it was mixed for quad. That rather weird phasey sound is (equally) present whether you listen through two speakers or decode to four.

When they made that fake Stereo from Mono back in the '60s (which sounds awful) it involved some kind of phase shifting. That appears to give some kind of effect when put through a QS or SQ decoder.

 

[Richard A]

The "actual quad?" status of the B&K albums may be up for debate, but I don't think it was (or is) wrong to presume they're quad - Gandharva mentions "stereo and quadraphonic remixing" being done at The Village Recorder, and All Good Men credits Robert Orban with 'Mixing and Quadraphonic Audio Supervision'.

Also with Gandharva, there were a number of pressings (1971, 1973, 1974) some with red covers, and some with blue, so it's possible that some variants are straight stereo and that some are matrix-encoded quad.

Given the Japanese album is marked as Quad, plays as Quad and every other vinyl version I have played sounds nothing like it I'm going with Japanese only was Quad.

 

[par4ken]

When they made that fake Stereo from Mono back in the '60s (which sounds awful) it involved some kind of phase shifting. That appears to give some kind of effect when put through a QS or SQ decoder.

Agree, the "stereo"effect is rather minimal, just a broadening/blurring of the image. That reminds me of the Ray Charles releases on Everest. They were taken from 78s transferred to tape, the ticks and pops physically cut out and the tape respliced. It is so much easier to clean up recordings today. The fake stereo process was then used but Everest took it a step further by claiming it as being QS encoded! My copy "Ray Charles Volume II" actually sounds rather good but to call it QS is more than a bit of a stretch.

Those Compatible Groove Stereo releases throw sound to the rear when SQ decoded. Phase shifting was used to get better mono compatibility, no centre image build-up. Neil Young found the sound to be so bad that he had his first album recalled!

Given the Japanese album is marked as Quad, plays as Quad and every other vinyl version I have played sounds nothing like it I'm going with Japanese only was Quad.

You are probably right. If any of the versions that you have tested were also quad (even if EV-4 vs QS) you should be able to tell. EV-4 will decode almost as good as QS via a QS/Involve decoder.

 

[MidiMagic]

I thought that my comments and explanation were very clear! Yes both the Tate and Vario-Matrix decoders are Involve are indeed "magical".
They can all extract near perfect Quad from regular stereo. That is done by pulling the stereo image apart or stretching it 270°. To get the sound to go all the way around 360° all you need is some out of phase information added to that stereo signal.

QS, RM and EV-4 even Dyna all do that! QS is very close to EV-4. The directional information encoded by the EV-4 encoder gets extracted and "enhanced" by the decoder. It is done almost perfectly. Encoding is a very basic process, the magic is in the decode (not the encode). The "proper" Stereo-4 decoder can not match any of the other much more advanced units.

QS encoding does allow for certain panned effects that cannot be done with the other more simple encodes but those limitations would have been addressed when the original mix was done, so there should be no big difference between the two.

QS is very close to both EV and DQ. Putting an adjustable blend/antiblend before the decoder can change any of them into the other two.

 

[MidiMagic]

When they made that fake Stereo from Mono back in the '60s (which sounds awful) it involved some kind of phase shifting. That appears to give some kind of effect when put through a QS or SQ decoder.

That is the Haeco-CSG system. It phase-shifts the center front channels. When played in SQ, the center front instruments come out the back speakers.

 

[ForagingRhino]

I've heard the quad mix of both Gandharva and All Good Men from the masters and they sound wonderful.
I'm working on it!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I've heard the quad mix of both Gandharva and All Good Men from the masters and they sound wonderful.
I'm working on it!

Hopefully some time in the future we’ll have Quadios of these (un-matrixed digital), and for this pair at least, all the EV SQ QS-whatever old analog discussions can take a hike.

 

[timbre4]

I've heard the quad mix of both Gandharva and All Good Men from the masters and they sound wonderful.
I'm working on it!

WOW! This is quite possibly the best example I've ever seen of a music provider sincerely working to give fans something that is merely legend to most folks. Should this come to pass, we should all pledge to spread the word to ensure this provider's special effort is rewarded with robust sales on this one.
(insert Chef's kiss here)

 

[jefe1]

I've heard the quad mix of both Gandharva and All Good Men from the masters and they sound wonderful.
I'm working on it!

Batch no 6 maybe? ok anytime in 2025 would be great.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I've heard the quad mix of both Gandharva and All Good Men from the masters and they sound wonderful.
I'm working on it!

And release it as a BD~A two~fer and just charge accordingly!

A DREAM come TRUE! Thanks Steve

 

[Electric Moo]

I've heard the quad mix of both Gandharva and All Good Men from the masters and they sound wonderful.
I'm working on it!

This is exciting news!!

Thanks for the tip, amazing this will be released

 

[MidiMagic]

Hopefully some time in the future we’ll have Quadios of these (un-matrixed digital), and for this pair at least, all the EV SQ QS-whatever old analog discussions can take a hike.

I don't want digitized versions. I want the original.