Bi Amping

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Whoa, time out for a minute. We are definitely trying to discuss 2 different things at once here.

(The following assumes that we're starting out with speakers that are bi-whateverable - that is, they have a separate pair of terminals for each section, usually dividing the input between the woofer and tweeter (and their associated low-pass/ high-pass passive crossover components). For normal single-cable operation, these terminals are connected in parallel using either straps or short lengths of wire. These jumpers must of course be removed prior to bi-anything.)

Okay:

1. Bi-wiring is when we use a single power amp output for each speaker enclosure, but with 2 speaker cables connected between each amp output and its associated speaker enclosure. One cable goes to the woofer terminals, the other to the tweeter.

The simplest approach to this is to just double up your speaker cable. This is bound to have pretty much zero effect on your sound, since as others have already mentioned, you could achieve the same thing by...well, just doubling your speaker cable! Assuming we're starting out with adequate cables as also mentioned, the fact that they're now separated at the speaker terminals really just doesn't matter.

On the other hand: If you enjoy experimenting with the sound of different speaker cables, this scheme was made for you, because it doubles your possibilities - Brand X to the woofs, Brand Y to the tweets! Multiply that by 5 or 7 or more, and your family may never see you again! Just keep in mind that even the high-end audio mags appear to be talking a lot less about bi-wiring in recent years, which is kind of a big red flag in my book - I mean, if those guys are losing interest, then it might be safe to just let this idea go the way of the Dodo bird of high-end audio, that damn Realistic Portable CD Player. Just sayin.

2. Bi-amping is more complicated - especially since that same term is used to describe 2 very different setups! More on that later*, but for now the version we're discussing is where 2 power amplifiers are connected in parallel at their inputs, and then each amp stage is used to drive a separate section on the bi-wired speaker - one amp for woof, the other for tweet.

This approach opens up the possibility to modify the sound of your speakers in a very tangible and unambiguous way, because any difference in gain between the 2 amps will alter your woofer-tweeter balance from the original factory sound. It's my humble opinion that the main "improvement" commonly reported after trying this approach is caused by this gain/balance shift. It's being said that even very small aberrations in frequency response over certain bandwidths can be very audible, and this is certainly a good way to achieve that goal, inadvertently or otherwise. I believe that even the bi-amp mode in modern receivers may be subject to this error to a certain extent - the gain spec between the internal power amp stages in your Denon or Yamaha is probably pretty damn close, but not necessarily calibrated or guaranteed, especially in the lower-end models. Also, by connecting each amp stage to only a woof, or only a tweet, you are altering, however slightly, the interaction between each amp and its connected driver/ crossover stage, for another possible change in the sound.

But again, if you like to experiment, off you go! With separate amps, you can try stuff like tubes for tweets, solid-state for woofs! Or just use the amp's level control to change your tweeter balance! Lots of possibilities - just say hi to the wife & kids from time to time, OK? :p

*2a. Actually, I think the more traditional use of the term "bi-amping" refers to the scheme of using active crossovers ahead of the power amplifiers, then connecting the amp outputs directly to the individual woofs & tweets (usually including some sort of tweeter protection). This approach of is a whole other thread of course.
 
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Bi-amping good. Bi-wiring worthless..

The sole benefit of Bi Wiring is to the cash register of whomever is selling the speaker cables. The ONLY science behind it is marketing science.

Of late the definition of Bi-Amping is also being distorted and ambiguated. It used to have a pretty precise meaning but now people are taking speakers designed to be bi wired (collusion of speaker manufacturer's with their dealers and only ocassionally speakers actually designed to be biamped) and instead of using two sets of wire , attaching two amps , both running full range. That is not bi amping in the sense it originally was conceived. You could call it bi amping because there are two amps but it has many fewer benefits and many of the disadvantages.

If you are really interested in biamping it has been discussed here before. Check my post number 20 on this thread;
Thoughts on bi-amping speakers.
wherein I link to many of the best articles ever written on the subject. Very few people who ever actually do it correctly ever go back to full range amps and crossovers in the speaker box. It requires time , money and care/caution. But it adds a great level of transparency and improves dynamics greatly. A later post in the thread shows some equipment that would help someone start out.

I am willing to help anyone who is interested in going down that road.
 
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Because you’re not likely to use the ‘extra’ power available.

"you're" not likely? the speaker will use it regardless of whether you "perceive' that extra power. I perceive it, jus sayin

because I now have 2x the sound percussion wave coming out of the same speaker, read that again

that sound wave is output at 2 different FULL POWER frequencies (1x FULL power tweeter, 1x FULL power mid/low) [because the bridge has been bypassed] =2x overall/net = happy = twice as much power from the same speaker (just at different frequencies)
 
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a dedicated / individual amp to each [tweeter + (mid/low)] = how does that not equal 2x power to each individual speaker?
The reason for this is that each separate section of the speaker will still see essentially the same input voltage as it does when connected normally, with its "other half," to a single amp output (assuming the same listening level of course), and so will dissipate the same amount of power as before.
 
"you're" not likely? the speaker will use it regardless of whether you "perceive' that extra power.

Where does the power go in a loud speaker? Extra movement = more volume. Do you listen at higher volumes? Not likely.

I just bought new power amps rated at 400W into 8ohms. I used to have 120W rated amps. Do I listen at significantly more volume or now run these amps at 400W? Of course not. (These do sound ‘better’ due to having more headroom and lower noise, but like your bi-amped system, I’m are not using twice+ the power)
 
"you're" not likely? the speaker will use it regardless of whether you "perceive' that extra power. I perceive it, jus sayin
It is due to the power distribution of music. Most power is needed/used in the lower frequencies. So, lets connect a 10w amp to the woofer and another to the tweeter. Turn up the volume until the woofer is dissipating the entire 10w but at that level the tweeter will only be using a fraction of that.
Compare that with a single 10w amp. Here the woofer will still be dissipating most of the power. As a result, the increase gained by bi-amping is fractional.
Note too that a doubling of power (if in fact, it is doubled) is only 3dB.
 
I have tried bi-amping a few times over the years with different AVRs / amps and speakers. On principle I was sold that this was going to make a improvement. Having twice the available power and allowing one amp to focus on handling the demanding low frequency. The listening experience did not confirm this. I heard zero difference between setups. Not to mention the added cost for amps and speaker wire.

there might be a small selection of scenarios where you may get some improvement, such as an amp that is underpowered and can benefit from support of an extra amp, some very difficult to drive speakers or reference listening levels (very demanding). in reality, if you have a decent amp to start with then you probably won't hear an improvement. but i bet a number of folks will state otherwise. so for me it was not worth the time / investment.
 
I have tried bi-amping a few times over the years with different AVRs / amps and speakers. On principle I was sold that this was going to make a improvement. Having twice the available power and allowing one amp to focus on handling the demanding low frequency. The listening experience did not confirm this. I heard zero difference between setups. Not to mention the added cost for amps and speaker wire.

there might be a small selection of scenarios where you may get some improvement, such as an amp that is underpowered and can benefit from support of an extra amp, some very difficult to drive speakers or reference listening levels (very demanding). in reality, if you have a decent amp to start with then you probably won't hear an improvement. but i bet a number of folks will state otherwise. so for me it was not worth the time / investment.

You're quite right - I have tried bi-amping just out of interest, I wasn't really expecting any improvement knowing it was dubious from an engineering viewpoint. I wasn't surprised there wasn't any. In fact there are whole load of technical reasons why bi-amping, is a bad idea in purist hifi terms. A lot of its advocates clearly don't understand what a power amplifier does!
 
2. Bi-amping is more complicated - especially since that same term is used to describe 2 very different setups! More on that later*, but for now the version we're discussing is where 2 power amplifiers are connected in parallel at their inputs, and then each amp stage is used to drive a separate section on the bi-wired speaker - one amp for woof, the other for tweet.

What you describe is not really Bi-amping and would be of little (or no) benefit over simple bi-wiring. I personally would call it just another form of bi-wiring rather than bi-amping.

Another related idea that could produce tangible benefits is where the feedback path of the amplifier is separated from the output terminals. I don't know if any amplifier manufacturer uses this idea but it has been touted in the DIY community. You run one set of wires to your speakers, the other set runs back to the feedback connection of the amplifier. The second set does not have to be the same heavy guage as the main wires as they carry very little current but simply provide feedback to the amplifier directly from the speaker so that any cable effects are compensated for. It's common for regulated power supplies to employ this technique as well, so that the voltage is regulated at the load rather than at the output terminals. The only potential problem with this idea is that if you were to lose your feedback connection the amp would run open loop potentially damaging your speakers or the amplifier itself.
 
"Bi-amping" is exactly the term used by more than one manufacturer to describe this feature on their products. I agree that it's not a very useful feature unless you are interested in attempting to alter the tonal balance of your speakers from what the manufacturer intended. But the feature is fairly common on modern multichannel receivers these days, and "bi-amping" is what they're calling it. I've also seen it used to describe the same arrangement using separate preamps & power amps. It is confusing, as I mentioned above, but there it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Kal, your so straight forward.
So when I say science, what I mean, and I would have assumed you knew what I meant.
Bi-wiring a speaker can be a way to improve overall sound quality. Ideally, one would run two identical lengths (and type and gauge) of two-conductor wire to each speaker. One wire handles the tweeter and the other the woofer for each speaker.
The SCIENCE behind this is just that simple, not complicated.
I am with Kal here, I do not see any science necessarily behind it either. I agree that bi amping "can" help if you are driving the amp to its limits (knee of the curve) and need that extra 3 dB of headroom. I don't see any benefits from cross talk/isolation of HF/LF either considering both amps are driven with the same signal. Also, the LCR filters in the speakers & drivers natural FR have to take care of that anyway.
 
One benefit of bi-amping is if you get clipping or distortion (and it's hard to generate none at all) when amplifying low frequencies, the distortion occurs in higher frequencies. When single amped, the tweeters will render that distortion. When bi-amped, the distortion from amplifying low frequencies goes only to the woofers which can't reproduce it. That plus the passive crossover section still connected to the woofers might filter it out anyway. Meanwhile the amplifier driving the tweeters has so much headroom that it is very unlikely to clip or distort at all. As I've understood it, this is the only benefit of bi-amping with passive crossovers in the speakers and the amps fed the same signal.

For the record I use an Arcam AVR350 AV amp which has 7 channels of amplification, and my speaker setup is 5.0. So it only cost me some extra speaker cable to use the mode in the AV amp for bi-amping stereo left and right, where I have Castle Harlech floorstanders. I wasn't expecting much or any improvement, but it did in fact improve sound quality a fair bit. This was particularly noticeable with female vocals and piano, for some reason.
 
With a proper size cable a sound can be enhanced by using more amps (bi-amping) because then you double POWER, not length or diameter and power is what drives each speaker component (tweeter, mid or sub).
This is not necessarily true. You would only be doubling the power assuming that both the HF & LF paths had equal energy in 1) the source signal itself 2) you had equal sink impedances in the speak drivers/LCR network. Even the unless you are driving at the limits of the amp, the effect would be the same as increasing the SPL but turning up the volume knob and possibly worse depending on the phase relationships/delay matching between the amps (unlikely to be a concern with audio frequencies). And of course louder always sounds better.
 
Just started playing one of the best sounding records I have, Emerson, Lake and Powell, a USA pressing I got NOS and I noticed a big difference when I cranked it up, which I seldom do...the bass was way more present and the sound was cleaner and more clear.

Don´t understand the "naysayers" which I think are just being "trolly" cause they know better...Bi amping...hmmm...a waste??? Then I wonder why they started biamping Studio Monitors cause , if just ONE amp will do, why bother?
I feel like they are playing Flat earthers just to be contrary.
Most folks here are pretty wise so , yeah right, I understand that BiAmping will not make the sound twice as loud or make a HUGE difference, of course, headroom is the best advantage, but it's the same as having a powerful car; you only appreciate it when you step on the gas (or an airplane, power will get you out of most sticky situations, that is why business jets are so safe, they are basically overpowered little things, ever seen the powerplants of a Cessna CItation X?)
Example...
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The difference will not be like night and day, I know , but the subtle difference is definitely welcome.

And , hell, if I have a nice Marantz SR 7012 which is not using the amps for the Atmos speakers and it can be used to make the fronts sound better, hell yeah....
What I really like is that , since I do not listen to music really loud, it sounds WAY better now...and if I feel like cranking it, then it ALSO sounds better, it's a win/win situation...
 
Just started playing one of the best sounding records I have, Emerson, Lake and Powell, a USA pressing I got NOS and I noticed a big difference when I cranked it up, which I seldom do...the bass was way more present and the sound was cleaner and more clear.
A very underappreciated album. But to be honest, being as how you seldom crank it up, don't you think maybe part of the improvement you heard could have been due to the increased volume? This is not to say that the Biamp didn't make a difference as well.

Don´t understand the "naysayers" which I think are just being "trolly" cause they know better...Bi amping...hmmm...a waste??? Then I wonder why they started biamping Studio Monitors cause , if just ONE amp will do, why bother?
I don't recall anyone saying bi-amplification was a waste. Maybe I missed something? There were negative comments regarding bi-wiring.

In the case of studio monitors, they not only include multiple amps, but the amps are generally sized differently and geared to driver needs. And the crossover is usually active in studio monitors, vs the passive crossovers in non powered speakers. That 2nd advantage is a big one.

And , hell, if I have a nice Marantz SR 7012 which is not using the amps for the Atmos speakers and it can be used to make the fronts sound better, hell yeah....
I agree. Why not?
 
All other things being equal correctly biamping will give you lots of extra headroom because high level passive crossovers waste usually a minimum of half your amplifier power. Frequently even more (depending on how many "ways" the speaker system is. More ways the more waste)
If you tried biamping and didn't like it you were doing something wrong.
Jim it is very clear we have a few trolls here, making pontificatory statements without offering any other support.
 
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