Bi Amping

[stobo222]

No one here is mentioning true, proper bi-amping, when an electronic crossover network is employed. I just yesterday, got some new rear surround speakers, and I just have to share what I am doing because, yes I am proud of it.. In the front, I have a pair of JBL 4350's, using a Pioneer C-23 4 way stereo electronic crossover network. The (new) rears are JBL 4320's which are bi-amped using a Biamp electronic crossover, and lastly I have modified JBL 4311 tri-amped using a dbx electronic crossover. Amplifiers are CAL CL-2500, and 4x Ramsa 1050. Now, THAT is "bi-amping"! LOL

 

[himey]

I have a set of speakers with separate inputs for bi-amping, so I tried it. I used a powerful amp for the low range and a smaller amp for the highs. This never worked for me because all I was doing was getting up from my listening position to adjust the amps, sometimes several times during each song. Overall, I could never get the sound right. Now, I didn't use an adjustable crossover, but I could see myself getting up all the time to play with the crossover control in addition to the amps. What a hassell. Although I loved the idea, biamping and me was not to be.

That was my experience with my car setup like that. Way too much fiddling, although it sounded great.

 

[himey]

No one here is mentionioning true, proper bi-amping, whene an electronic crossover network is employed. I just yesterday, got some new rear surround speakers, and I just have to share what I am doing because, yes I am proud of it.. In the front, I have a pair of JBL 4350's, using a Pioneer C-23 4 way stereo electronic crossover network. The (new) rears are JBL 4320's which are biamped using a Biamp electronic crossover, and lastly I have modified JBL 4311 triamped using a dbx electronic crossover. Amplifiers are CAL CL-2500, and 4x Ramsa 1050. Now, THAT is "biamping"! LOL

It was mentioned...

 

[Owen Smith]

Another idea would be to place the amplifier inside the speaker so that it would be connected via a very short piece of wire. That idea is often done with subwoofers.

I have two pairs of Dynaudio Xeo 3 wireless speakers. One pair is laid on their sides on top of the kitchen wall cupboards, the other pair is in my study on the shelves surrounded by books and computer gear. They were meant as secondary speakers and the transmitter is run from a pre out on my main hifi. I don't know what protocol the wireless is but it is lossless 16/48 and low enough latency it is OK that I can hear the wired speakers in the lounge if the door is open.

Anyway, the Xeo 3s have DSP digital crossovers before the amps and each speaker contains 2 x 50W Class D amps for tweeter and woofer. Damn me if they don't sound better than the main system in the lounge, despite the Xeo 3s being on top of cupboards near the ceiling or surrounded by crap on bookshelves. With the ones in the kitchen near the ceiling I did have to put the foam bungs they supplied into the rear ports to tame boomy bass. But that done they sound fantastic either stood in the kitchen or sat at the dining table. They're not cheap, but at least they deliver for what I paid.

So my experience of digital crossover fully active speakers with dual amps in the cabinets is very positive.

 

[himey]

Best to just go mono blocks and reap the rewards, once you go there there ain't no turning back

My buddy swears by his two bridged NAD 2400's. Too bad I can't talk him into the surround sound game, although, 30+ years later, I am still trying...

 

[gene_stl]

TVB said:

I have a set of speakers with separate inputs for bi-amping, so I tried it. I used a powerful amp for the low range and a smaller amp for the highs. This never worked for me because all I was doing was getting up from my listening position to adjust the amps, sometimes several times during each song. Overall, I could never get the sound right. Now, I didn't use an adjustable crossover, but I could see myself getting up all the time to play with the crossover control in addition to the amps. What a hassell. Although I loved the idea, biamping and me was not to be.

This is not biamping. I know they are calling it biamping at stores and in reviews but for it to be biamping there are two requirements. One is a crossover
before the power amps and the other is the elimination or reduction (could be either depending on set up) of the crossover components in the speaker box. Just plugging in two amps and running them full range is not what pros do. What is described above should be called something else although I have no idea what.

If you didn't like the tonal balance with two amps, why did you like it better with only one amp after it had been set up. (which should be started with a real time analyzer of some kind) Although I don't advocate doing the above I concede that even doing that could result in some audible improvements depending on before and after situations.

Sal1950 said:

So you've got 52 years of experience, didn't take long to learn did it. LOL

I started helping my friends do it immediately. Never blew anything up. Nobody ever went back (until downsizing 40 years later after their hearing was gone anyway)

When I was a tiny lad I remember being in the basement of the house I grew up in. It had a furnace that had been steam and coal and had been converted to hot water and natural gas. It was from the thirties and looked like it belonged in a battleship. It was being replaced because the cast iron core had developed a slow leak. It was a cast iron block about one and a half cubic feet , square. There was a water expansion tank. which they removed and reingstalled on its side. The older very large pipefitter told the younger one about a siphon tube inside which he proceeded to cut out with a torch, shorten and reinstall in the new orientation. He told his young assistant. "There's guys, that have been fitting pipe for 30 years, that don't know you have to do that." (I am sure because I wanted to watch those guys that I got a nice snoot full of asbestos but it hasn't hurt me so far)

In any field of endeavor some folks make it their bidness to learn what the hell they are doing and some don't and rely on their guardian angels.

Primitive Pete should definitely not bi amp unless he gets some help from someone that knows what he is doing.

I still do a lot of maintenance and repair on my extensive collection of lawn gear. But I forsook working on the cars except for topping up the fluids and checking things in the seventies when they started adding complex anti pollution gear. My first such car an 81 Cutlass even a large selection of "real" professional mechanics couldn't get the C3 induction system to run any good.(Both Olds dealers and a shop "specializing in automotive 'technology' who was recommended to me" (Called theirselves "CarTech")

 

[Cyber 1]

My buddy swears by his two bridged NAD 2400's. Too bad I can't talk him into the surround sound game, although, 30+ years later, I am still trying...

I only run mono blocks in my stereo gear,which is a huge jump in separation and image sound field , for surround gear I'm ok with multi channel amps

 

[gene_stl]

stobo222 said"

No one here is mentionioning true, proper bi-amping, whene an electronic crossover network is employed. I just yesterday, got some new rear surround speakers, and I just have to share what I am doing because, yes I am proud of it.. In the front, I have a pair of JBL 4350's, using a Pioneer C-23 4 way stereo electronic crossover network. The (new) rears are JBL 4320's which are biamped using a Biamp electronic crossover, and lastly I have modified JBL 4311 triamped using a dbx electronic crossover. Amplifiers are CAL CL-2500, and 4x Ramsa 1050. Now, THAT is "biamping"! LOL

Only about half my posts. On my tombstone they can write "Gene was the great evangelizer for bi-amping."
In 1977 when I built my speakers the BFF who helped me do the boxes , after hearing mine, built something similar. At that time there was really only the S8R system. He liked my idea of making it a four ways system. So it was an 077, 375 with short horn and slant plate, and LE10 mid bass coupler in a sub enclosure and an LE15 PR15 combo. Here is the only remaining picture of it.

It was only a tri amped at first. He used an N7000 and ran the 375 and 077 with one amp. At the time crossed over with a Nikko three way electronic crossover. It sounded terrific. Nobody ever got fired for buying anything JBL.

At that time I got a salesman's accomodation on the D-23. Later my friend worked at J&R music world and got a D 23 also. The best single component ever made. He passed away in the nineties and I have his D23 also which I am going to use on my surrounds with Yamaha NS1000.
The most accurate loudspeakers ever sold until recently (see page 453 of Floyd Toole's book and also Martin Collums "High Performance Loudspeakers")

Would you clarify what ampleflyers you are using. These days there are not an excess of high quality smallish amplifiers which can be useful.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

The difficulty in "designing" crossovers has been greatly overblown. When I got interested in this in 1969 it was very much DIY. The two articles I linked to by the late great Norman Crowhurst who wrote zillions of articles and also numerous books on audio tell exactly how to do it. I have had several advanced audiophiles who should all know better tell me there is "magic" in crossovers designed by certain designers (usually on stratospherically priced tallboy box speakers). But when asked for clarification there is nothing. Even the vaunted JBL M2 which Floyd Toole describes as "the best there is" (talking about frequency response) which IS biamped from the factory still has room for improvement due to some networks appearing between the power amp and the driver voice coils.

Multi Amping allows all sorts of tricks to be done that just aren't possible any other way. In the recent thread here where we were trying to help Edison Baggins multi amp his Infinities, examination of the crossover revealed what amounts to a six way parallel network that gyrates down to very low (less than 2 ohms) impedance. That network probably eats 80% of the amplifier power. No wonder amps struggle to drive it.

Sal I guess you don't believe in hot rodders modding their own engines nor people smithing their own guns.
BTW Marantz had a tube electronic crossover in its lineup that you could use with your 7C and tube power amps. In the early 60s.
JBL also sold "electronic crossovers" to use with their drivers.

It was always an advanced technique. But now you can buy a fourway stereo crossover for $160 that does tricks we only dreamed of back in the day.

From my library I have a 2000 issue of Electronics World UK that features a very interesting DIY speaker system with built in tri-amping:

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/00s/Electronics-World-2000-02.pdf page 105.

This is rather old & the author took a really strange route to create his speaker enclosures. But it is an excellent example of how bi/tri-amping is a real benefit when approached right. No doubt there are newer similar articles out there. I just happen to have this one.

When I was in my speaker builder phase it seemed I was playing Whomp-a-Mole. From an initial construct if I defined something to be improved on it was always a question of driver, enclosure, cross over? Expensive & time consuming to experiment. Probably starting with an integrated approach with adjustable line level cross overs & multi-amping would have been a big help.

I know today there is a wonderful assortment of PC apps to use in designing & testing DIY speakers. But mult-amping would fit into that concept very well. In fact it would be so much easier that that EW article, using digital cross over & class D power amps. Or consider this: go the simple route with analog high/low pass cross over to factory made amps & let digital room correction from a modern AV receiver or pre-pro do all the fine tuning!

 

[DuncanS]

Or consider this: go the simple route with analog high/low pass cross over to factory made amps & let digital room correction from a modern AV receiver or pre-pro do all the fine tuning!

That could be fun! For filter design I use Williams & Taylor (which sadly seems to now be out of print) and for a refence book on filters I've used my old Uni book by Zverev which is still in print (originally published in 1967)

 

[stobo222]

It was mentioned...

I stand corrected, biamping vs. biwiring a few pages back!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

From my library I have a 2000 issue of Electronics World UK that features a very interesting DIY speaker system with built in tri-amping:

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/00s/Electronics-World-2000-02.pdf page 105.

Interesting. I was greatly influenced by this article (originally in Wireless World) for both the application and the thought processes. SB1980-3way

 

[gene_stl]

After AUDIO magazine folded Wireless World probably had the best articles including the one Sonik linked to above.
They had a great Doug Self preamp article that I considered building but I was too busy at that stage of my life and did have a good working preamp.
The Self preamp utilized op amps which the high end guys still thought weren't as good as discrete component though they had long surpassed them mainly.

 

[Sal1950]

No one here is mentioning true, proper bi-amping, when an electronic crossover network is employed. I just yesterday, got some new rear surround speakers, and I just have to share what I am doing because, yes I am proud of it.. In the front, I have a pair of JBL 4350's, using a Pioneer C-23 4 way stereo electronic crossover network. The (new) rears are JBL 4320's which are bi-amped using a Biamp electronic crossover, and lastly I have modified JBL 4311 tri-amped using a dbx electronic crossover. Amplifiers are CAL CL-2500, and 4x Ramsa 1050. Now, THAT is "bi-amping"! LOL

Now that's one Godzilla multich rig, nice.

 

[salsdali]

jesus, I feel like a moron

 

[Jim the Oldbie]

Here's the audio section of my main home system, another example of traditional bi tri-amping. The miniDSPs handle driver correction (including baffle step compensation) for mids & highs, room correction for lows, time alignment, crossovers, master volume & DACs. (Currently the center channel speaker is omitted, with center redirected to Front L & R at -2.8 dB each.)

 

[DuncanS]

Interesting. I was greatly influenced by this article (originally in Wireless World) for both the application and the thought processes. SB1980-3way

Interesting, I'd forgotten about those Wireless World articles I've just gone and pulled those magazines from my library (I have all WW from 1976 to about 2008, when it became awful). Wireless World was great, learnt a lot from it both pre and post Uni (I'm an Electronic Engineer)

After AUDIO magazine folded Wireless World probably had the best articles including the one Sonik linked to above.
They had a great Doug Self preamp article that I considered building but I was too busy at that stage of my life and did have a good working preamp.
The Self preamp utilized op amps which the high end guys still thought weren't as good as discrete component though they had long surpassed them mainly.

I almost built one as well, can't remember why I didn't, probably because I'm useless at anything mechanical so the box would have been a disaster.

 

[gene_stl]

Somebody made empty boards for the project but I remember being put off by the price of them. And the notion of drilling a preamp case probably took some wind out of my sales although I have built lots of things.

 

[jimfisheye]

How can one not?

Is there really any?

The "science" is simply using multi conductor speaker cable and speakon connectors. I'm actually not sure if there's an industry convention for the channel use. I have a small 3 way PA. I think I did the highs on 1/2, mids on 3/4, and subs on 5/6. Those could be repatched in the rack if I had to improvise through some situation. Knowing me, I probably have it backwards vs common practice!

My bi-amped speakers are all wired up in the studio with separate cables. No "science".

 

[Owen Smith]

I have two pairs of Dynaudio Xeo 3 wireless speakers. One pair is laid on their sides on top of the kitchen wall cupboards, the other pair is in my study on the shelves surrounded by books and computer gear. They were meant as secondary speakers and the transmitter is run from a pre out on my main hifi. I don't know what protocol the wireless is but it is lossless 16/48 and low enough latency it is OK that I can hear the wired speakers in the lounge if the door is open.

Anyway, the Xeo 3s have DSP digital crossovers before the amps and each speaker contains 2 x 50W Class D amps for tweeter and woofer. Damn me if they don't sound better than the main system in the lounge, despite the Xeo 3s being on top of cupboards near the ceiling or surrounded by crap on bookshelves. With the ones in the kitchen near the ceiling I did have to put the foam bungs they supplied into the rear ports to tame boomy bass. But that done they sound fantastic either stood in the kitchen or sat at the dining table. They're not cheap, but at least they deliver for what I paid.

So my experience of digital crossover fully active speakers with dual amps in the cabinets is very positive.

It has occurred to me that I could replace my main 5.0 system with more Dynaudio active speakers, and then I'd only need a processor. The trouble is arranging a master volume control since the Dynaudios expect to be driven line level. The wireless link to the new ones is 24/96 lossless (5GHz on three different frequencies) so might have enough resolution to be fed a volume controlled processor output, and won't interfere with my existing ones which are on 2.4GHz wireless.

A pair of these would make great left/rights (quotes 18Hz low end!):

https://www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/focus-xd/focus-60-xd?c=walnuthighgloss
and a pair of these for surrounds:

https://www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/focus-xd/focus-20-xd?c=walnuthighgloss
But the problem becomes a Centre speaker, they don't sell an active one. I could use another of the Focus 20 above but it would look a bit odd on the rack. The only centre Dynaudio make doesn't even use the same drivers, doesn't come in the same finishes, and would have to be driven by a conventional amp which is a shame:

https://www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/evoke/evoke-25c?c=blackhighgloss